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Originally posted by SkooB_E Why should they be given independency? Yes they are a majority in Kosovo but the fact is that Kosovo was always a part o Serbia and they where not the majority there. If the latinos bacame a 90% majority in california and wanted independence from The United STates should they bi given one even if they are a minority in the rest of America?

I base my opinion on national identity. Kosovans don't view themselves as Serbs, they view themselves as Kosovans. Latinos in the USA come here to become American citizens and enjoy the benefits of such a status.

My question to you is, how do you expect the Serbs to reconcile a nation which wants independence? As the 1990's shows, violence will not bring about a good solution.

Well, they always identified them selves as albanians and never "kosovans" as you call them. If they already have Albania then why should they have the right to claim Kosovo as theirs when it never was?

My point regarding lationos was; what if they decided that they didn't want to be a part of The United States but felt that because they where a majority in california the should have it as their own?

Had Kosovo ramained a part of Serbia, as the UN up until now stated that it was, there wouldn't have to be need for reconciliation.

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Originally posted by SkooB_E Well, they always identified them selves as albanians and never "kosovans" as you call them. If they already have Albania then why should they have the right to claim Kosovo as theirs when it never was? My point regarding lationos was; what if they decided that they didn't want to be a part of The United States but felt that because they where a majority in california the should have it as their own? Had Kosovo ramained a part of Serbia, as the UN up until now stated that it was, there wouldn't have to be need for reconciliation.

They identify themselves as ethnic Albanians living in Kosovo. Why are you so keen on argueing over technicalities which really don't matter?

Here is the difference between Kosovans and Latinos. The Albanians have been living in Kosovo for centuries. The Latinos in America are for the most part, immigrants from the south who only started coming to the country in large numbers in the mid-20th century. They have no separatist national identity. The Kosovo Albanians do have a separatist national identity. The two situations are completely different, so the comparisn between Kosovo Albanians and Latinos isn't valid.

It is obvious that the Kosovo authorities with the blessing of the people will declare independence, whether accepted or not by the Serbs and Russians. Nothing will stop it. What action do you believe will change the Kosovans desire for national independence? It doesn't really matter what you, or the Serbs, or Russia think. The Kosovans will declare independence regardless!

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Originally posted by SkooB_E That doesn't piss me off the slightest. You where the one bringing this shit up over and over again, you're only underlining how ignorant you realy are.

OR how ignorant you think I am. I could care less...

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The 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence is an act of the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government Assembly of Kosovo, adopted on 17 February 2008, which declared Kosovo to be independent from Serbia The declaration of independence was made by members of the Kosovo Assembly meeting in Pristina, the capital of Kosovo, on 17 February 2008. It was approved by a show of hands, with no votes of opposition from the 109 members present. Ten Assembly members, including all the Kosovo Serbs, were absent. The terms of the declaration state that Kosovo's independence is limited to the principles outlined by the Ahtisaari plan. It prohibits Kosovo from joining any other country, provides for only a limited military capability, states that Kosovo will be under international supervision and provides for the protection of minority ethnic communities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_K...of_independence

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It's a done deal...

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Originally posted by Krypton They identify themselves as ethnic Albanians living in Kosovo. Why are you so keen on argueing over technicalities which really don't matter?

How this not relevant? Declaring yourself as Albanian you are identifying youself by nationality. This states that they cannot claim independence based on nationality. And you youself stated that you base your opinion on national identity. Now you say that this is a technicality?

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Originally posted by Krypton Here is the difference between Kosovans and Latinos. The Albanians have been living in Kosovo for centuries. The Latinos in America are for the most part, immigrants from the south who only started coming to the country in large numbers in the mid-20th century. They have no separatist national identity. The Kosovo Albanians do have a separatist national identity. The two situations are completely different, so the comparisn between Kosovo Albanians and Latinos isn't valid.

Of course albanians have existed in Serbia for long, just like the latinos in The States, that's the way it has always been with two nations bordering eachother. However they where never a majority in Kosovo until the late sixties, early seventies, when they started immigrating into Serbia. Witch does make the comparison very much valid.

The only reason the albanians in Kosovo have a separatist national identity is because they choose to call themselves. Just as you have people calling themselves hispanic-american and african-american.

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Originally posted by Krypton It is obvious that the Kosovo authorities with the blessing of the people will declare independence, whether accepted or not by the Serbs and Russians. Nothing will stop it. What action do you believe will change the Kosovans desire for national independence? It doesn't really matter what you, or the Serbs, or Russia think. The Kosovans will declare independence regardless!

Obviously, this cannot be stoped now.
But fact still is that the so called atority in an this claim as inependent is illegal acording to U.N and their resolution 1244 about sovereign countries and their boundaries. They only reason most of the countries have to go along with this is that they helped the albanian get this far and backing down now would be admitting they failed. And after all that's happened there that's not an option for them. The only thing they can do about it is sit back and watch things unfold and hope for the best.

Regardning the Ruissians, they are most about talking but until they are under a direct threat they won't do shit.

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Originally posted by Krypton OR how ignorant you think I am. I could care less...

Yet you keep bringing this up.

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Originally posted by SkooB_E How this not relevant? Declaring yourself as Albanian you are identifying youself by nationality. This states that they cannot claim independence based on nationality. And you youself stated that you base your opinion on national identity. Now you say that this is a technicality?

You were just having a fit about me calling them Kosovans instead of Albanians. That is a technicality which really doesn't matter...

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Of course albanians have existed in Serbia for long, just like the latinos in The States, that's the way it has always been with two nations bordering eachother. However they where never a majority in Kosovo until the late sixties, early seventies, when they started immigrating into Serbia. Witch does make the comparison very much valid.

It's been more than a century the Albanians have had a majority in Kosovo...

[[[An Austrian statistics published in 1899 estimated:

182,650 Albanians (47.88%)
166,700 Serbs (43.7%)
Remaining 8.42% Tsintsars, Turks, Circassians, Roma and Jews

Detailbeschreibung des Sandzaks Plevlje und des Vilajets Kosovo (Mit 8 Beilagen und 10 Taffeln), Als Manuskript gedruckt, Vien 1899, 80-81.]]]

[[[British journalist H. Brailsford estimated in 1906 that two-thirds of the population of Kosovo was Albanian and one-third Serbian. The most populous western districts of Djakovica and Pec were said to have between 20,000 and 25,000 Albanian households, as against some 5,000 Serbian ones. Map of Alfred Stead, published in 1909 , shows that similar numbers of Serbs and Albanians were living in the territory.

H. N. Brailsford, Macedonia, Its Races and Their Future, London, 1906

Servia by the Servians, Compiled and Edited by Alfred Stead, With a Map, London (William Heinemann), 1909. (Etnographical Map of Servia, Scale 1:2.750.000).]]]

[[[German scholar Gustav Weigand gave the following statistical data about the population of Kosovo, based on the pre-war situation in Kosovo in 1912:

Prishtina District: 67% Albanians, 30% Serbs
Prizreni District: 63% Albanians, 36% Serbs
Vučitrn District: 90% Albanians, 10% Serbs
Ferizaj (Uroševac) District: 70% Albanians, 30% Serbs
Gilani (Gnjilane) District: 75% Albanians, 23% Serbs
Mitrovica District: 60% Serbs, 40% Albanians
Metohija with the town of Đakovica (Gjakova) is furthermore defined as almost exclusively Albanian by Weigand.

Gustav Weigand, Ethnographie von Makedonien, Leipzig, 1924; Густав Вайганд, Етнография на Македония (Bulgarian translation)]]]

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The only reason the albanians in Kosovo have a separatist national identity is because they choose to call themselves. Just as you have people calling themselves hispanic-american and african-american.

The national identity of Kosovo is different from that of the minorities of the USA. First of all, unlike Kosovo, latinos or blacks don't enjoy any widespread majority in any state of the union. Secondly, no minority in the USA has a national identity other than that of an American. Thirdly, the minorities of the USA, with no national identity other than being an American, are not lobbying for territorial sovereignty. This is why I say the situations are completely different and not relavent because neither is related in any way shape or form to the other situation.

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Obviously, this cannot be stoped now..

Something we agree on...

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Regardning the Ruissians, they are most about talking but until they are under a direct threat they won't do shit.

Good. It's best to let the Serbs and Kosovans sort it out. The decision to recognize the government of Kosovo is up to the international community themselves. I am of the opinion that they should be recognized. They have all the aspects I see as important to the existance of a state.

1. National identity.
2. Support of the super-majority.
3. Functioning social services and governance.

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Yet you keep bringing this up.

What, and give you last word in our flame war? Come now, I never give my detractors the victory of the last word...

How about we declare a cease fire and drop the flaming...

Well, it's getting late here so there will be alot of spelling errors and I have a feeling that I'm going to fuck up these quotation tags eventually. Anyway:

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Originally posted by Krypton You were just having a fit about me calling them Kosovans instead of Albanians. That is a technicality which really doesn't matter...

I wasn't having a "fit" about anything. It was you who stated (and do so again in your previsous post) that nationality was of importance, that was why I thought that it was more than a just technicality.

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Originally posted by Krypton Secondly, no minority in the USA has a national identity other than that of an American.

So those calling them selves hispanic-americans and african-americans don't actually exist, and are all made up?

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Originally posted by Krypton The national identity of Kosovo is different from that of the minorities of the USA. First of all, unlike Kosovo, latinos or blacks don't enjoy any widespread majority in any state of the union. Thirdly, the minorities of the USA, with no national identity other than being an American, are not lobbying for territorial sovereignty.

I'm not saing they are, I'm asking what if they did? Because that was what happend i Serbia. And hat was the reason I compared the two.

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Originally posted by Krypton Something we agree on...

I never really claimed anything else.

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Originally posted by Krypton Good. It's best to let the Serbs and Kosovans sort it out. The decision to recognize the government of Kosovo is up to the international community themselves. I am of the opinion that they should be recognized. They have all the aspects I see as important to the existance of a state. 1. National identity. 2. Support of the super-majority. 3. Functioning social services and governance.

That is my point. This was NEVER sorted out between serbs and albanians, because others countries felt the need to interfere (sp?) and the decision of Kosovos government was never made by the international community but by the albanians themselves the rest of the world just sat by and watched this happend because they couldn't stop this, and didn't want to be acused of doing the same thing they claim to have stoped the serbs from doing.

And in my opinion all your three points fail.

1. The fact is that they have an national identity as albanians, and as such already have a country of their own.

2. They don't have the support of any majority (at least not yet), and fact still remains that acording to the UN this is still illegal, which makes other countries reluctant to choose any side in this conflict. When they eventually do it will be because they have to and not because it's right.

3. Their is nothing functioning socialy in anyway, if it did there would be no need for a peacekeeping force now would it? And since I have already commented on the government earlier I won't do it a third time.

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Originally posted by Krypton What, and give you last word in our flame war? Come now, I never give my detractors the victory of the last word... How about we declare a cease fire and drop the flaming...

If you feel you have to have the last word on something like this go ahead, I don't care much for these types of flame wars as I find them quite immature.

Last edited by SkooB_E on Feb-18-2008 at 00:14

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Originally posted by SkooB_E So those calling them selves hispanic-americans and african-americans don't actually exist, and are all made up?

They aren't national identities. They are ethnic identities.

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I'm not saing they are, I'm asking what if they did? Because that was what happend i Serbia. And hat was the reason I compared the two.

I'm saying they can't, because the situations are completely different and unrelated, thus, an invalid comparison.

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That is my point. This was NEVER sorted out between serbs and albanians, because others countries felt the need to interfere (sp?) and the decision of Kosovos government was never made by the international community but by the albanians themselves the rest of the world just sat by and watched this happend because they couldn't stop this, and didn't want to be acused of doing the same thing they claim to have stoped the serbs from doing.

Sorting it out now means the Serbs accepting Kosovan independence. I hope it's peaceful.

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And in my opinion all your three points fail. 1. The fact is that they have an national identity as albanians, and as such already have a country of their own. 2. They don't have the support of any majority (at least not yet), and fact still remains that acording to the UN this is still illegal, which makes other countries reluctant to choose any side in this conflict. When they eventually do it will be because they have to and not because it's right. 3. Their is nothing functioning socialy in anyway, if it did there would be no need for a peacekeeping force now would it? And since I have already commented on the government earlier I won't do it a third time.

1. Their national identity is as Kosovo Albanians, not of the country of Albania.

2. "The declaration of independence was made by members of the Kosovo Assembly meeting in Pristina, the capital of Kosovo, on 17 February 2008. It was approved by a show of hands, with no votes of opposition from the 109 members present."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_K...of_independence

3. The peacekeeping force was to stop the Serbian ethnic clensing of the region in the 1990's. The Kosovo government has functioning departments of education, police, health, etc. All of these are functioning social services, a characteristic of a functional state government.

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If you feel you have to have the last word on something like this go ahead, I don't care much for these type of flame wars as I find them quite immature.

You sure had no problem being immature, as did I..

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Originally posted by Krypton They aren't national identities. They are ethnic identities.

But acording to you this is just a technicality thus making it irrelevant.

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Originally posted by Krypton I'm saying they can't, because the situations are completely different and unrelated, thus, an invalid comparison.

That's still not an answer to my question. I'm not saying it will . I'm asking what if?

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Originally posted by Krypton Sorting it out now means the Serbs accepting Kosovan independence. I hope it's peaceful.

Accepting something you know is wrong is not sorting things out. It's giving in.

And since there have been a couple of explosions already it's highly unlikly that there will be anything peaceful about this.

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Originally posted by Krypton 1. Their national identity is as Kosovo Albanians, not of the country of Albania. 2. "The declaration of independence was made by members of the Kosovo Assembly meeting in Pristina, the capital of Kosovo, on 17 February 2008. It was approved by a show of hands, with no votes of opposition from the 109 members present." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_K...of_independence 3. The peacekeeping force was to stop the Serbian ethnic clensing of the region in the 1990's. The Kosovo government has functioning departments of education, police, health, etc. All of these are functioning social services, a characteristic of a functional state government.

1. Kosovo was never a country on it's own but a part of Serbia, therefore it could not be claimed as an nationality on it's own.

2. The most important thing to be remembered here is what I wrote in my previous post:

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fact still remains that acording to the UN this is still illegal

And when I ment majority I meant internationally. And since the serbs never participated in the voting and never where given equal rights in the voting it can not be called democratic and should not be recognized.

3. If all the ethnicities are not able to participate in the comunity it can hardly be seen as functioning. And if the peacekeeping force was only there for this ethnic clensing they aren't supposed to be there now, because it's not happening anymore right? And yet they are.

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Originally posted by Krypton You sure had no problem being immature, as did I..

Really now? Did I post some stupid pictures and kept on bringing up stuff that was off topic? Not really.

Last edited by SkooB_E on Feb-18-2008 at 00:20

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Originally posted by SkooB_E But acording to you this is just a technicality thus making it irrelevant.

It is irrelavent because an ethnic identity is much different from a NATIONAL identity.

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That's still not an answer to my question. I'm not saying it will . I'm asking what if?

I know your asking "what if?". I'm telling you there is no what if, because the ethnic minorities in this country do not have a national identity outside that of America. The Kosovo Albanians do.

What I think your trying to ask is this...

"What if in the USA, there was a region where a nation of people, by super-majority requested, then stated they would declare independence; should I, or the federal government accept the declaration of independence?"

First, I want to restate my opinion of the irrelavancy of the question because of the completely different circumstances. But to answer your question, it really would not be a problem. States are free to secede from the union if they choose to. Puerto Rico, a US commonwealth majority latino, has even been given the opportunity to vote on whether they want independence, statehood, or status quo. See, this is why I say your question is irrelavent, because the laws, attitudes, and simple circumstances are completely different and unrelated to the Kosovo-Serb issue, which makes them uncomparable...

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Accepting something you know is wrong is not sorting things out. It's giving in.

Ahh, Serb honor is stake? I know Serbian nationalism is strong, and they rarely take no for an answer. I really hope the instability of the 1990's does not come back to the former Yugoslavia...

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1. Kosovo was never a country on it's own but a part of Serbia, therefore it could not be claimed as an nationality on it's own. 2. When I ment majority I meant internationally. And since the serbs never participated in the voting and never where given equal rights it can not be called democratic and should not be recognized.

1. You have to ask the question of national identity. If you were to go to Pristina and ask, "What nationality are you?" I'm almost 100% certain the overwhelming majority would identify themselves as Kosovo Albanians, not Serbs. See, you would be right if Kosovans viewed themselves as Serbs. But the reality of the situation is, they do not have a national identity as Serbian.

2. Voting in what, and with what equal rights?

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And as I wrote in my previous post: 3. If all the ethnicities are not able to participate in the comunity it can hardly be seen as functioning. And if the peacekeeping force was only there for this ethnic clensing they aren't supposed to be there now, because it's not happening anymore right? And yet they are.

If I recall, the minority Serbs do have a role in the government of Kosovo, and are also protected by the law. It is they who abstained from voting for the declaration of independence.

The UN peacekeeping force is still there probably because tensions are still very high. The possibility of a resumption of hostilities is still there, especially now.

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Really now? Did I post some stupid pictures and kept on bringing up stuff that was off topic? Not really.

You sure didn't hesitate to respond now did you? I really didn't know how else to make it clear that you were making an issue out of a NON-ISSUE; hopefully the pictures helped at that. But here we are still bickering. How about we just agree to disagree about the video, ay?

Last edited by Krypton on Feb-18-2008 at 00:43