quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Oh excuse me. Fundamentalist Christian is a better description. WTF is your point? Are you denying that a fundamentalist christian leads the most the powerful nation on earth?

and what's the difference between his fundamental christian beliefs and yours? why are yours OK but his not?

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Evangelicals do not rule this country. That was a fairly silly hyperbole.

I also don't buy the "Zionist alliance" argument - there seems to be some rather reactionary tendencies concerning Israel/Palestine on these boards whereby any reference to religion becomes evangelical and any tacit support for Israel becomes tantamount to anti-Arab Zionism.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN why is it hypocrisy to oppose iran's nuclear program? last time i checked, two wrongs dont make a right. the proliferation of nuclear weapons is a serious business and just because some states have them does not, a priori, give all states the right to have them as well. global politics isnt about equality, i hate to tell you. how many nations have veto powers on the UN security council? saying iran should have nuclear weapons because israel does is just awful logic. how on earth will we EVER disarm the world if we're constantly allowing more and more countries to develop WMD? its ludicious to argue that iran has any inherent "right" to atomic weapons. at least we know israel can be trusted with such weapons, by virtue of not having used them or provided nuclear technology to others (that i know of). of course there is a "religious component" in regards to nuclear weapons, but its more related to the jihadists and their propensity for supporting martyrdom and the end of days in israel than some influence of the christian right in america (which does exist obviously but its not all-powerful like you seem to think), it certianly isnt enough to explain the nature of the WORLD's support and acceptance of the israeli state.

First of all, I never stated that I want Iran to have nuclear weapons. What I said was I believe it is hypocrisy that Israel illegally developed its own WMD program, without the international inspections or scrutiny that Iran is being placed under. In fact, Israel still denies they even have WMDs. They have imprisoned Vanunu, the guy who disclosed Israel's nuclear program, they've imprisoned him in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT for over 10 years. Now, if Vananu were Iranian and disclosed a supposed Iranian nuclear weapons program, he'd be hailed a hero worldwide. But nooooo. Israel is immune from such scrutiny. The guy who proved to the world Israel had an ILLEGAL nuclear weapons program is still to this day, rotting away in 23 hour lockdown.

EDIT: Vanunu was also kidnapped by the Mossad in Rome, Italy, which is against international law.

Last edited by Krypton on Mar-03-2008 at 00:40

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN and what's the difference between his fundamental christian beliefs and yours? why are yours OK but his not?

Because I would not pre-emptively start a war. Because I would not throw unjustified amounts of support to a distant small foreign country because they are the "chosen people". Nothing justifies the US support for Israel, the numerous blocking of UN Security Council Resolutions denouncing Israeli atrocities and actions, nothing. Not economics, not national security; the Cold War is even over. There is no justification other than the ideological explaination or religious alliance.

I don't believe in morality crusades legislated by the government. Morality is a solely religious study which should not be the basis of any policy by the white house. So every time I hear, "We will bring democracy to the Middle East," I cring and think, "Oh god, another morality crusade by the government!"

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Originally posted by Krypton WTF is your point?

my point is for you to do your f**kin homework, "for one"

...and stop creating fear out of thin air.

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Originally posted by Krypton First of all, I never stated that I want Iran to have nuclear weapons. What I said was I believe it is hypocrisy that Israel illegally developed its own WMD program, without the international inspections or scrutiny that Iran is being placed under.

iran isnt/wasnt surrounded by nations that want to obliterate it. but nobody here is arguing that they should have developed nuclear weapons, but they have. how is opposing iran's supposed development program "hypocritical"? last time i checked israel didnt have leaders asking for the destruction of iran.

Considering some of the people that hold power in iran, their links to terrorist groups that engage israel on a regular basis, the undemocratic nature of the country, the possibility of civil unrest and change that could destabilise protection of such assets - israel possessing the bomb is qualitatively different.

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Originally posted by Krypton In fact, Israel still denies they even have WMDs. They have imprisoned Vanunu, the guy who disclosed Israel's nuclear program, they've imprisoned him in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT for over 10 years.

which is exactly what iran would do if the same thing was done there. or britain or the US for that matter. I don’t agree with it, but such is life.

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Originally posted by Krypton Now, if Vananu were Iranian and disclosed a supposed Iranian nuclear weapons program, he'd be hailed a hero worldwide.

Vananu IS hailed as a hero by some, and if an iranian did the same SOME people would hail him as a hero, whilst the iranian took him away and probably execute him. who gives a shit?

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Originally posted by Krypton But nooooo. Israel is immune from such scrutiny. The guy who proved to the world Israel had an ILLEGAL nuclear weapons program is still to this day, rotting away in 23 hour lockdown.

your problem is that youre american and you see everything through the tarnish of what you have to put up with every day in your own country. the rest of the world is not nearly as one-eyed and pro-israeli as the US is so stop making statements to that effect. FYI last time i checked Vananu was free to move within israeli borders.

find me a notable statesmen that leaked top-secret documents regarding security that DIDNT end up in prison.

Iran and israel do not have the same levels of trust, for some pretty obvious reasons. To say that they are equivalent is rather naïve, as is the assertion that a nuclear-armed israel is on the same "danger meter" (and thus should receive the same attention) as a nuclear armed iran. The entire UN wants iran to stop its nuclear enrichment, so why are you barking on about israel as if it’s the same thing?

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Originally posted by Q5echo my point is for you to do your f**kin homework, "for one"

Moot point. You're just crying about a technicality in names! You have no point! Why did you even say anything in this thread to begin with!? How about acknowledging the topic at hand and saying something about that instead of trying to poke holes at dumb ole krypton ay?

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...and stop creating fear out of thin air.

Quite possibly the funniest thing I've read all day. I like this one better. . .

"I've told people that if you're interested in avoiding World War III, it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them (Iran) from having the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon," Bush said.

EVEN THOUGH Iran has a right to nuclear power!! Odd isn't it?

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Originally posted by Krypton Because I would not pre-emptively start a war.

bush's religious views had zero to do with the war in iraq. but his views certainly do sound rather similar to yours.

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Originally posted by Krypton Because I would not throw unjustified amounts of support to a distant small foreign country because they are the "chosen people".

So, your contention is that US religious influence has perpetuated the US' support of israel during the entire last 6 decades or so. Some evidence more than your assertions would be welcome. seriously, the idea is retarded. if your religious right is so freaking powerful then how come we dont see republicans winning every election?

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Originally posted by Krypton Nothing justifies the US support for Israel,

you mean other than a strategic ally in the middle east?

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Originally posted by Krypton the numerous blocking of UN Security Council Resolutions denouncing Israeli atrocities and actions, nothing.

true.

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Originally posted by Krypton Not economics, not national security; the Cold War is even over. There is no justification other than the ideological explaination or religious alliance.

the "religious alliance" view is retarded.

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Originally posted by Krypton I don't believe in morality crusades legislated by the government. Morality is a solely religious study which should not be the basis of any policy by the white house. So every time I hear, "We will bring democracy to the Middle East," I cring and think, "Oh god, another morality crusade by the government!"

Fuck, you're so short-sighted. Everything you understand is tied to your current understanding of american politics and its relationship to george bush. The idea that the US has been on a "morality crusade" during the last 60 years is absurd. If it IS on a crusade now, well, im sure it will end at some stage with a new government. Why is everything always so extreme with you? The sky is always falling in your world, I don’t get it.

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Originally posted by Krypton Well, have you heard what evengical leaders like Pat Robertson say that christians (USA) and jews should come together for Israel as if such an alliance is divinely inspired?

No, but I have zero interest in religion, Religious Leaders, or what "god" supposedly wants in all of this. I think if you didn't, and the rest of the world didn't either, the Jews wouldn't have found it necessary to stake out a claim of land for themselves over there.

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Originally posted by Krypton Is that a wish of death?

If you are a proponent of war on religious grounds, then yes, it is.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Actually, no. The "other" side happen to be the native indigenous population, the real semitic Palestinians, Chrisitans, and Jews living in the region. Not your Ashkhenazi European / Slovic immigrants. By that logic, I guess you blame the native American Indians for being virtually extinct too?

You're missing my point;

I'm not supporting Israel anymore than I'm supporting Palestine. My point is that we have two basic factions who want to kill each other over some speck of land that SUPPOSEDLY, "God" has something to do with.

Given that there is ZERO proof that "God" even exists, I find it sad/unbelievable/comical/pathetic that as advanced as the human race is, we're running around killing each other over ancient fairy-tales about Deities.

Think about it.

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton EVEN THOUGH Iran has a right to nuclear power!! Odd isn't it?

this is what i'm talking about, you always wading in the shallow end of the intellectual pool.

it's impossible for you to make simple, yet fundamental, distinctions about any topic

NO ONE IS STOPPING IRAN FROM HAVING NUCLEAR POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

they're an internationally recognized State sponsor of international terror. THEY DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEVELOP NUCLEAR WEAPONS!!!!!!!!!!

all we, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, is asking is for some f**king transparency. thats it!

DO YOUR FUCKING HOMEWORK!!!!!!!!!

you are like the dumbest, most easiest led kid on this board. seriously.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN iran isnt/wasnt surrounded by nations that want to obliterate it. but nobody here is arguing that they should have developed nuclear weapons, but they have. how is opposing iran's supposed development program "hypocritical"? last time i checked israel didnt have leaders asking for the destruction of iran. Considering some of the people that hold power in iran, their links to terrorist groups that engage israel on a regular basis, the undemocratic nature of the country, the possibility of civil unrest and change that could destabilise protection of such assets - israel possessing the bomb is qualitatively different. which is exactly what iran would do if the same thing was done there. or britain or the US for that matter. I don’t agree with it, but such is life. Vananu IS hailed as a hero by some, and if an iranian did the same SOME people would hail him as a hero, whilst the iranian took him away and probably execute him. who gives a shit? your problem is that youre american and you see everything through the tarnish of what you have to put up with every day in your own country. the rest of the world is not nearly as one-eyed and pro-israeli as the US is so stop making statements to that effect. FYI last time i checked Vananu was free to move within israeli borders. find me a notable statesmen that leaked top-secret documents regarding security that DIDNT end up in prison. Iran and israel do not have the same levels of trust, for some pretty obvious reasons. To say that they are equivalent is rather naïve, as is the assertion that a nuclear-armed israel is on the same "danger meter" (and thus should receive the same attention) as a nuclear armed iran. The entire UN wants iran to stop its nuclear enrichment, so why are you barking on about israel as if it’s the same thing?

I never said the world is one-eyed and pro-israeli. I said Israel does not get nearly the same scrutiny as Iran gets over nuclear weapons.

Granted, it's understandable if Vanunu was imprisoned for releasing national secrets, but the fact of the matter is, the entire nuclear weapons program was illegal, and so Vanunu is jailed for disclosing an international crime.

Additionally, is Israel all that much better ethically than Iran as you say so? I think not. Israel is certainly NO LESS guilty than Iran in committing war crimes, and to blame Islamic militants as the reason to committ such crimes is abismal. The reason Islamic militants are fighting in Palestine today is because of their failed state status and their belief that they were wronged in 1947.

Anyways, my point stands firm. The US-Israel alliance is hypocritical in the aspect of denouncing Iranian nuclear energy ambitions with no direct evidence whatsoever to any existing Iranian nuclear program, while COMPLETELY ignoring the illegal Israeli WMD program.