2 billion is an insignificant amount of money?

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Originally posted by tathi 2 billion is an insignificant amount of money?

of course not, but i said it was an insignificant part of the 2.6 trillion budget, which is true.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 a little dramatic! do you always write with that flare? you're an idealist: that's great, but i'm not. but attacking me with adjectives doesn't prove anything and it is an ineffective method of persuasion. Trust me, i get the plight of the people and the history. I, however, do not think that we an obligation to be involved in the situation. I do think we should stop giving support to israel, but as i wrote above, it's not enough to concern me. Yes, my position is "self absorbed," and "desensitized" but i'm not willfully ignorant. I don't know why you chose to attack me in the first place. i'm not a supporter of israel. i think US policy in the ME is fucked up! We should not be involved in the region at all. the day the oil runs out in Saudi arabia will be a joyous day. Do you get this upset with the plight of the people in Sudan? they are being treated far worse than the Palestinians. I can at least respect your position if you get that heated for the Sudanese.

No one is asking for you assistance, money, concern, or trying to convince you to "help." I think you spelled out a stance that would disassociate you from the situation and absolve you from any responsibility... don't get involved (i.e. cut off all support to Israel), being done with your tax dollar at your expense. I wasn't really attacking you per se, but I in all fairness there was an implicit attack on anyone even attempting to justify a thing Israel (the state) does. It's has no legitimate grounds for existing in the first place or continously expanding. Having said that, I hope you can distinguish between the concept of a state (a political structure and institution), and the people living in it. The two are not one and the same.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 But to answer your question, i absolutely wouldn't stand by. i wouldn't expect anyone else to do so either. however, there comes a point when reality must set in. now appears to be a pretty good time.

so you saying after a few years of occupation you ll just begin to acccept it and move on as if nothing happend?

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quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer so you saying after a few years of occupation you ll just begin to acccept it and move on as if nothing happend?

few years....the wave of jewish people moving to israel and taking over land started in the late 1800's.

the palestinians should accept the reality that the jewish people aren't leaving. that's what i'm talking about. I didn't say they shouldn't fight for their rights. just that they need to accept a co-existence with the jewish people. i don't think i said anything other than that, but if i did i only intended to say what i just said.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 few years....the wave of jewish people moving to israel and taking over land started in the late 1800's. the palestinians should accept the reality that the jewish people aren't leaving. that's what i'm talking about. I didn't say they shouldn't fight for their rights. just that they need to accept a co-existence with the jewish people. i don't think i said anything other than that, but if i did i only intended to say what i just said.

They coexisted just fine with Jews and Christians that already lived there, who also happen to be Palestinian. Plus, fighting an agressor or colonial enemy to keep your home/land is one of their "rights" too. It doesn't apply exclusively to the rest of the world but Palestinians.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z No one is asking for you assistance, money, concern, or trying to convince you to "help." I think you spelled out a stance that would disassociate you from the situation and absolve you from any responsibility... don't get involved (i.e. cut off all support to Israel), being done with your tax dollar at your expense. I wasn't really attacking you per se, but I in all fairness there was an implicit attack on anyone even attempting to justify a thing Israel (the state) does. It's has no legitimate grounds for existing in the first place or continously expanding. Having said that, I hope you can distinguish between the concept of a state (a political structure and institution), and the people living in it. The two are not one and the same.

fair enough....but i wasn't implying anything if you attacked actions of israel. this situation is complicated and the right answer isn't easy, otherwise the decision would have been made already.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z They coexisted just fine with Jews and Christians that already lived there, who also happen to be Palestinian. Plus, fighting an agressor or colonial enemy to keep your home/land is one of their "rights" too. It doesn't apply exclusively to the rest of the world but Palestinians.

sure it is, but not by blowing up children on buses.

look, i'm not saying that the Palestinians don't have a good argument for what they do. what i'm saying is that they are fighting a losing battle. Regardless of what we like, there is a jewish state that isn't going anywhere. what's the point in continually fighting when you clearly can't win (i mean violently fighting - they should continue fighting through other means). whether they are 'morally' justified or not is irrelevant because they aren't helping their own cause. in fact, they are hurting themselves because the more they fight, the more Israel restricts their actions. In that respect, it's highly irrational behavior. Furthermore, even if the US did not give support to Israel, its military would be far superior to the arab states and palestinians. So by us not providing support doesn't mean that the palestinians would win battles.

i just wanted to address something you previously said (or someone else said). Namely, that Israel is ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. That is not occurring. Israel is the largest provider of humanitarian aid to the palestinians. granted, Israel is also a major reason for the problems, but a country is clearly not trying to kill all of the palestinians if they are providing support at the same time.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Mar-08-2008 at 04:33

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 sure it is, but not by blowing up children on buses.

Yup, I completely agree (not to mention it's also violates on of the basis teneds of legitimate resistance or "jihad" in Islam i.e. you do not target defenseless civilians that pose no threat). But that wouldn't be happening eigther if they weren't living under a brutal military occupation that does far worse and disproportionately more damage on a regular basis.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Yup, I completely agree (not to mention it's also violates on of the basis teneds of legitimate resistance or "jihad" in Islam i.e. you do not target defenseless civilians that pose no threat). But that wouldn't be happening eigther if they weren't living under a brutal military occupation that does far worse and disproportionately more damage on a regular basis.

i don't know about far worse. while the Israeli military does it's share of collateral damage, it is collateral! Israel does not try to indiscriminately kill people - there is always a target - even though the application of force may be disproportionate or off target. On the other hand, the main tactic for Palestinian fighters (or whatever you want to call them) is indiscriminate killing, whether by rudimentary rockets fired into israel or suicide bombings. In that respect, the Palestinians are far worse.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 i don't know about far worse. while the Israeli military does it's share of collateral damage, it is collateral! Israel does not try to indiscriminately kill people - there is always a target - even though the application of force may be disproportionate or off target. On the other hand, the main tactic for Palestinian fighters (or whatever you want to call them) is indiscriminate killing, whether by rudimentary rockets fired into israel or suicide bombings. In that respect, the Palestinians are far worse.

It's not colateral when you're indiscriminately flying F-16s over neighborhood full of civilians, rolling tanks in cities, bulldozing homes with children and women inside them. Let me give you a clear example of how merciful the IDF is, quoting a post from another thread directed at someone else of course. That's Rachel Corey, an American peace activists bulldozed in broad day light for protesting agianst the demolition of a Palestinian family's home. Israel is by no means innocient, and by virute of it's very existance and nature, the term doesn't even apply to it:

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Hey dickhead! Does she look like a terrorist to you? Or this western fotographer who was trying to save Palestinian children being sniped by IDF soldiers (who was wearing a bright orange jacket and the IDF knew he was with the media, which is one reason why they shot him ofcrouse)? How about this? Does it come across as a surprise that some Palestininas would resort to violence after the Zionist parasites stole this much of their land and drove them out? Now go fuck yourself please you anti-semitic piece of shit.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller