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TO guy
JELO owns me



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
the Fed is expected to slash its key lending rate today by as much as 1.25 per cent


Mark, is the Bank of Canada expected to follow this move?
I'm loving my prime - 0.9 variable

Old Post Mar-18-2008 17:03  Canada
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MarkT
Automatic Static



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Toronto

^^^ no kidding...deeply discount variable is sweet right now

There is virtually no chance we will see as deep a cut here, but I think it's safe to say that we will indeed see a cut on April 22 when the Bank of Canada is scheduled to make its next rate announcement.

Typically, the Bank of Canada adjusts it's overnight rate by 0.25% at a time. The recent 0.50% cut was abnormal and the last time we saw such an adjustment was shortly after 9/11.

All signs point to another cut, as it's been noted that maintaining a huge gap between the U.S. and Canadian rates will only force our dollar higher, further hurting exports. Plus, the high dollar is helping to keep inflation down, further signalling the likelihood of a rate cut to stimulte the economy. Inflation is running below what the Bank of Canada typically likes to see.

Obviously I don't care to see the country experience a recession...but from a selfish standpoint, bring on more rate cuts!!!


Malek, what kind of mortgage do you have? 4% fixed or 1.25% < Prime? I've honestly never seen that deep a discount on a variable in my many years in the biz, so I'm guessing you took a fixed between 1-2 years ago? either way...congrats!

Old Post Mar-18-2008 17:45  Canada
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TO guy
JELO owns me



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
^^^ no kidding...deeply discount variable is sweet right now



Obviously I don't care to see the country experience a recession...but from a selfish standpoint, bring on more rate cuts!!!




The way I see it, cutting rates gives me more money each month to pump into the economy, so I'm loving all the cuts.

Old Post Mar-18-2008 17:47  Canada
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malek
drinks your milkshake!



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Montréal

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
Malek, what kind of mortgage do you have? 4% fixed or 1.25% < Prime? I've honestly never seen that deep a discount on a variable in my many years in the biz, so I'm guessing you took a fixed between 1-2 years ago? either way...congrats!


neither, the wife works at the bank


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Old Post Mar-18-2008 18:06 
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MarkT
Automatic Static



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by malek
neither, the wife works at the bank


I'm confused...what kind of product/term do you have? (or PM me if you don't feel like posting it, lol). I sell mortgages myself, but still have to be in a term/product of some sort.

TO guy (I forget your name, but know we've met!), I agree. These rate cuts have a dramatic effect for anyone with a not-so-tiny mortgage.

If you elected to have a fixed payment, your amortization drops with the lower rate and your overall interest payable is *substantially* reduced. If you elected to have variable payments, your amortization is unchanged, with your payment dropping instead (putting money in your pocket now). I'm in the middle of doing a somewhat large mortgage for a friend and just the 50bps rate is saving them about $110/month. Not too shabby.

Unfortunately, the banks have really tightened up on the variable rate discounts off Prime...the days of 0.90% and 1.00% < Prime are pretty much over for the time being.

Still, 0.75% < Prime is easy enough to obtain for anyone who is about to buy or whose mortgage is up for renewal...so I personally wouldn't settle for less right now.

Fixed rates will hopefully drop a bit as well, given that bond yields are at a low point, but if/when (and by how much) is up for debate. Going stricly by history, fixed rates well above what they should be, given the bond market, but the following article sheds some light on that:

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/03/05/mortgage.html

quote:

Bank of Canada chops rate, but fixed mortgages don't budge

Many Canadians may have been hoping that Tuesday's big cut in the Bank of Canada's key lending rate would lead to lower fixed mortgage rates, but it hasn't.

The central bank chopped its overnight lending rate by half a percentage point to 3.5 per cent. Financial institutions then matched that cut by lowering their prime lending rates by a half percentage point to 5.25 per cent.

That automatically pushed down the rates for variable mortgages, lines of credit, and other floating-rate loans that are tied to the prime. But not the rates for fixed mortgages — the most common kind of mortgage.

A day after the big Bank of Canada move, fixed mortgage rates remain just where they were before the central bank acted.

In fact, since early December last year, the central bank has chopped its key lending rate by a full percentage point and it has signalled that further rate cuts are "likely."

Yet the posted rate for the popular five-year fixed mortgage has dipped by less than two-tenths of a percentage point in the same time frame.

Analysts point out that the central bank's overnight lending rate is, as the name suggests, a very short-term lending benchmark. Long-term fixed mortgage rates tend to be more influenced by moves in the bond market, which has become a more difficult borrowing environment lately.

Analysts say the global credit crunch — triggered by the U.S. subprime mortgage crisis — has made it more expensive for Canadian banks to access funds.

Spreads increasing
"What essentially is happening is the banks are increasing the spread between what they charge you for a mortgage and what they may pay for money," said Tsur Somerville of the Sauder School of Business in Vancouver.

"They're essentially compensating themselves for higher risk in real estate," he told CBC News.

That one-percentage-point discount on the posted rate that mortgage borrowers were automatically offered is also becoming more difficult to get.

"All the different ways that you used to be able to get a discount — those seem to be drying up, " Somerville said. "So when I talk to people, what they're saying is those discounts are hard to get right now."

The tighter lending environment is also being felt in the U.S. mortgage market.

A study released Wednesday by TD Economics showed that American homeowners were not getting much of a break from the big slashing in the federal funds rate by the U.S. Federal Reserve.

The Fed has chopped its key lending rate by 2.25 percentage points in the past six months, but fixed mortgage rates have hardly moved at all.

The most recent Primary Mortgage Market Survey Report from Freddie Mac — also known as the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation — showed 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates are virtually unchanged from late August.

Rates on jumbo mortgages — those over $417,000 US — have fallen by just one-fifth of a percentage point since August, as financial institutions grow more risk averse.

TD economist Beata Caranci said the recently approved $168 billion US economic stimulus package will give the U.S. economy a lift in the second half of the year.

"However, once this short-lived impact dissipates, the U.S. economy could relapse in early 2009 if American households are unable to derive greater benefits from the longer-term influence of past Fed rate cuts," she said.


I can say that CIBC and its subsidiaries, thanks to the brutal writedowns from ludicrous exposure to the U.S. subprime market, is focusing on profitability as well...so no deep discounts on variable rates and no substantial drop to fixed rates thus far.

Old Post Mar-18-2008 18:35  Canada
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malek
drinks your milkshake!



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Montréal

its an employee benefit, -2% on the displayed rate. We also have half prime on lines of credit... and so many more benefits.


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Old Post Mar-18-2008 18:58 
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tvmann
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: near Vancouver, Canada

I lived in Calgary in the 1980s when inflated house prices slumped and many homeowners, even the ones still with good jobs, saw their equity go negative and they just walked out of them and handed the keys over to the mortgage lenders. Just a few years later when the economy recovered they all got new mortgages and houses, their bad credit ratings didn't last long.

Back then the problem was dropping oil prices causing a local recession and there were high interest rates, 15 to 20%!

Now, we have still lots of jobs, high oil, gold, and commodities prices, and a low but dropping interest rate, all things that support current high house prices especially in certain places. But if the weak USA economy spreads here, which it usually does although Canada is now less dependent on them, that could cause problems through job losses.

Personally I'm thinking of selling my house (it's paid-off and too big for me) and rent an apartment, then invest the cash in stocks, maybe buy a condo later if prices dive. I did that before, but after a year decided owning a house was a better idea.

Old Post Mar-18-2008 21:13  Canada
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SuperJimbo
Jimbo. Jimmy. James.



Registered: Dec 2006
Location: It doesn't matter.

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
For a quick summary of the current 'sub-prime crisis' in the U.S. that is impacting worldwide markets, check out the following article...


New York Times
ECONOMIC SCENE
Can’t Grasp Credit Crisis? Join the Club
March 19, 2008
By DAVID LEONHARDT


Raise your hand if you don’t quite understand this whole financial crisis.

It has been going on for seven months now, and many people probably feel as if they should understand it. But they don’t, not really. The part about the housing crash seems simple enough. With banks whispering sweet encouragement, people bought homes they couldn’t afford, and now they are falling behind on their mortgages.

But the overwhelming majority of homeowners are doing just fine. So how is it that a mess concentrated in one part of the mortgage business — subprime loans — has frozen the credit markets, sent stock markets gyrating, caused the collapse of Bear Stearns, left the economy on the brink of the worst recession in a generation and forced the Federal Reserve to take its boldest action since the Depression?

I’m here to urge you not to feel sheepish. This may not be entirely comforting, but your confusion is shared by many people who are in the middle of the crisis.

“We’re exposing parts of the capital markets that most of us had never heard of,” Ethan Harris, a top Lehman Brothers economist, said last week. Robert Rubin, the former Treasury secretary and current Citigroup executive, has said that he hadn’t heard of “liquidity puts,” an obscure kind of financial contract, until they started causing big problems for Citigroup.

I spent a good part of the last few days calling people on Wall Street and in the government to ask one question, “Can you try to explain this to me?” When they finished, I often had a highly sophisticated follow-up question: “Can you try again?”

I emerged thinking that all the uncertainty has created a panic that is partly unfounded. That said, the crisis isn’t close to ending, either. Ben Bernanke, the Federal Reserve chairman, won’t be able to wave a magic wand and make everything better, no matter how many more times he cuts rates. As Mr. Bernanke himself has suggested, the only thing that will end the crisis is the end of the housing bust.

So let’s go back to the beginning of the boom.

It really started in 1998, when large numbers of people decided that real estate, which still hadn’t recovered from the early 1990s slump, had become a bargain. At the same time, Wall Street was making it easier for buyers to get loans. It was transforming the mortgage business from a local one, centered around banks, to a global one, in which investors from almost anywhere could pool money to lend.

The new competition brought down mortgage fees and spurred some useful innovation. Why, after all, should someone who knows that she’s going to move after just a few years have no choice but to take out a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage?

As is often the case with innovations, though, there was soon too much of a good thing. Those same global investors, flush with cash from Asia’s boom or rising oil prices, demanded good returns. Wall Street had an answer: subprime mortgages.

Because these loans go to people stretching to afford a house, they come with higher interest rates — even if they’re disguised by low initial rates — and thus higher returns. The mortgages were then sliced into pieces and bundled into investments, often known as collateralized debt obligations, or C.D.O.’s (a term that appeared in this newspaper only three times before 2005, but almost every week since last summer). Once bundled, different types of mortgages could be sold to different groups of investors.

Investors then goosed their returns through leverage, the oldest strategy around. They made $100 million bets with only $1 million of their own money and $99 million in debt. If the value of the investment rose to just $101 million, the investors would double their money. Home buyers did the same thing, by putting little money down on new houses, notes Mark Zandi of Moody’s Economy.com. The Fed under Alan Greenspan helped make it all possible, sharply reducing interest rates, to prevent a double-dip recession after the technology bust of 2000, and then keeping them low for several years.

All these investments, of course, were highly risky. Higher returns almost always come with greater risk. But people — by “people,” I’m referring here to Mr. Greenspan, Mr. Bernanke, the top executives of almost every Wall Street firm and a majority of American homeowners — decided that the usual rules didn’t apply because home prices nationwide had never fallen before. Based on that idea, prices rose ever higher — so high, says Robert Barbera of ITG, an investment firm, that they were destined to fall. It was a self-defeating prophecy.

And it largely explains why the mortgage mess has had such ripple effects. The American home seemed like such a sure bet that a huge portion of the global financial system ended up owning a piece of it. Last summer, many policy makers were hoping that the crisis wouldn’t spread to traditional banks, like Citibank, because they had sold off the underlying mortgages to investors. But it turned out that many banks had also sold complex insurance policies on the mortgage debt. That left them on the hook when homeowners who had taken out a wishful-thinking mortgage could no longer get out of it by flipping their house for a profit.

Many of these bets were not huge, but were so highly leveraged that any losses became magnified. If that $100 million investment I described above were to lose just $1 million of its value, the investor who put up only $1 million would lose everything. That’s why a hedge fund associated with the prestigious Carlyle Group collapsed last week.

“If anything goes awry, these dominos fall very fast,” said Charles R. Morris, a former banker who tells the story of the crisis in a new book, “The Trillion Dollar Meltdown.”

This toxic combination — the ubiquity of bad investments and their potential to mushroom — has shocked Wall Street into a state of deep conservatism. The soundness of any investment firm depends largely on other firms having confidence that it has real assets standing behind its bets. So firms are now hoarding cash instead of lending it, until they understand how bad the housing crash will become and how exposed to it they are. Any institution that seems to have a high-risk portfolio, regardless of whether it has enough assets to support the portfolio, faces the double whammy of investors demanding their money back and lenders shutting the door in their face. Goodbye, Bear Stearns.

The conservatism has gone so far that it’s affecting many solid would-be borrowers, which, in turn, is hurting the broader economy and aggravating Wall Streets fears. A recession could cause credit card loans and other forms of debt, some of which were also based on overexuberance, to start going bad as well.

Many economists, on the right and the left, now argue that the only solution is for the federal government to step in and buy some of the unwanted debt, as the Fed began doing last weekend. This is called a bailout, and there is no doubt that giving a handout to Wall Street lenders or foolish home buyers — as opposed to, say, laid-off factory workers — is deeply distasteful. At this point, though, the alternative may be worse.

Bubbles lead to busts. Busts lead to panics. And panics can lead to long, deep economic downturns, which is why the Fed has been taking unprecedented actions to restore confidence.

“You say, my goodness, how could subprime mortgage loans take out the whole global financial system?” Mr. Zandi said. “That’s how.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/b...Pe1LgBwkWz5G+lw

Old Post Mar-19-2008 04:30  Canada
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Jem_hadar
I remember...



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Pandora (South of Nowhere)

quote:
Originally posted by SuperJimbo
New York Times
ECONOMIC SCENE
Can’t Grasp Credit Crisis? Join the Club
March 19, 2008
By DAVID LEONHARDT



lol Just emailed myself this at work, to read over with my coffee tomorrow morning. Looks very informative. Thanks andrew.


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Old Post Mar-20-2008 03:38  Canada
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