how much does a dj make at sensation white? thats the badest stage I have ever seen before.

I used to work full time as a DJ and nothing else. There was a time when you could live of it and live pretty well.

These days things have changed and the amount of money you get paid has gone down considerably that’s for sure.

Also the amount of work that is out there is less in general and being in a position where I am getting older I even find some places will want younger DJs. In some cases it is because it is easier to pull the wool over the eyes of young guys and they are cheaper if not free.

I do attend venues sometimes as I do get invited out by promoters to see what I think of the DJs they have got and we will sit down and discuss what was good and so on. I guess that’s part of the privilege of knowing a lot of people in the business and having been around for a long time.

Very often I hear guys who can beat match pretty well but can’t create a good set. The DJs themselves will often say ‘man it was really going off in here tonight’, but the truth is that the guy’s mates were really pissed and were some of the only people really getting into it. Occasionally you do get someone who is really good and has a natural knack for mixing and playing really good music but those guys are pretty far between.

Because so many people are doing it, sure the money will be less as it is truly supply vs. demand at the moment.

It’s also fair to say that the good promoters are the truly unsung heroes of the business, but once again they are few and far between. They do put a lot more work and dedication into the actual night itself but they would still be nothing without DJs who in turn have also put an awful lot of dedication and time into their craft not to mention great investment. For bars and promoters to expect DJs to play for free is pretty wrong as that would equate to ‘Come here and let me make money by using you’, but it does have to be proportionate to the input from all parties. Keep in mind as a DJ you can work at more than one place in one night, a promoter would be hard pushed to do that.

It is my belief that DJs should be paid pretty well, but in turn could then expect to have demands placed on them both in terms of quality and commitment i.e. turning up on time and so on.
If you pay your DJs well as a promoter you are in a better position to demand and expect quality. You can also expect a higher calibre of DJs to be interested in playing for you and can afford to be a little bit fussy over who you have working for you. It also give you a little more negotiating power when trying to get the people you want if you have to approach them.

As a bar owner or promoter, if you want to find new talent, hold a competition, although once again too often this is geared towards the person with the most mates in the place or the mates of the organisers winning. But if you had integrity you could make a good name for yourself as a promoter. Nothing wrong with holding auditions i.e. have DJs come and play for you in an opening slot every now and again.

I feel that the industry needs to regain its integrity as at the moment you have so many people in love with the idea of being a superstar DJ and in reality to be that you also have to have it where it counts in terms of productions.
The guys who have known productions are always going to be in a better position as a lot of work in terms of getting the name out there has already been done.

The way I look at it is that it’s not so much the fact that there isn’t the money in the dance music industry but it’s more that the divide between the names and the wannabees is growing.
As an example I might get £50 doing a warm up for a guy who is getting £5000 to play what everyone is expecting him to.

But in fairness to the big guns, even some of them have to make do with less these days. It could be down to the reduced popularity of dance music in general as that would mean that there is generally less money to go around. Back in the late 90s people would come to a night just if they were given a flyer and a friendly chat, these days people are a lot more fickle and not so willing to part with their cash.

The introduction of software based DJs has meant that people with considerably less talent than most of us can call themselves DJs and produce something that actually sounds totally acceptable in a dance floor environment without too much effort. Like it or not digital is here to stay, but it is a hard truth that it has cheapened the art of the DJ considerably.

I have pretty much given up in London as the majority of nights are house based and it’s not what I want to be playing. House also has a major grip at the moment so for the harder dance DJs there isn’t as much around. As a result you also have a lot of DJs from other genres crossing over so the House market is very saturated indeed.

Like anything though, I think the dance music industry is going through a phase of reinventing itself and will take a bit of time to catch up. There is also a bit of a trend towards indie nights at the moment. It’s all part of the circle of life.

In the end those who stick to their guns will be the ones who are rewarded, everything else is just fashion.

Just some musings on how I feel about it. Not meant to offend anyone.

Cheers
Nem

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https://www.mixcloud.com/Calvin_Karass/

Like stu said, "every man and his dog is a DJ".

I agree with that, but it's not just that. It's also a problem that the majority of partiers just don' know what makes a good DJ. For example I saw an ad for an event with DJ Shadow and Cut Chemist being promoted in ths city's biggest newspaper.

Personally I"m not experienced with the skills of either of these guys. They're more in in the broken beats scene, and are reasonably well reknowned. BUt the thing that struck me odd was the glorification of the fact that they would be using 8 turntables, 4 mixers FX machines etc. etc. etc. As good as they might be, I'd be keen to see if one of them used even 4 of those turntables at the same time.

This was used as the major selling point for their act. It was supposed to demonstrate that they were really unique and different from the usual crowd of DJs.

The average reader is likely to be lulled in by this, and that really gets to me. It's sad that this sort of charade lets them make it on the papers here, and allows them to sell tickets for $60 per head.

Last edited by Abhay on Apr-19-2008 at 15:46

quote:

Originally posted by Abhay Like stu said, "every man and his dog is a DJ". I agree with that, but it's not just that. It's also a problem that the majority of partiers just don' know what makes a good DJ. For example I saw an ad for an event with DJ Shadow and Cut Chemist being promoted in ths city's biggest newspaper. Personally I"m not experienced with the skills of either of these guys. They're more in in the broken beats scene, and are reasonably well reknowned. BUt the thing that struck me odd was the glorification of the fact that they would be using 8 turntables, 4 mixers FX machines etc. etc. etc. As good as they might be, I'd be keen to see if one of them used even 4 of those turntables at the same time. This was used as the major selling point for their act. It was supposed to demonstrate that they were really unique and different from the usual crowd of DJs. The average reader is likely to be lulled in by this, and that really gets to me. It's sad that this sort of charade lets them make it on the papers here, and allows them to sell tickets for $60 per head.

It's a different sort of thing - they're both scratch DJs, so much more of the focus is the technical ability... you go to these events more to watch someone perform really skillfully rather than necessarily to dance, although a good scratch DJ will get people dancing as well. It can actually work really well, when you have a few minutes of intense technical trickery with everyone just gawping at the DJ, then a big track drops in and it gets everyone bouncing even more than they would have done if it was just mixed in house-style, I've had some awesome nights out at these kinds of nights and probably only danced for a small chunk of the night.

It's like going to a see a live band play - you go to see people with a lot of skill performing, simply for the experience... if the band plays some energetic stuff and some more chilled stuff, you're not expected to dance for all of it.

Not everything is about getting as many people as possible to dance for as much of the night as possible...


And for the record, Shadow and Cut Chemist do some seriously mental shit - I wouldn't have said that using 8 decks between them was really out of the question.

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Stu Cox |

Last edited by Stu Cox on Apr-19-2008 at 17:00

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox It's a different sort of thing - they're both scratch DJs, so much more of the focus is the technical ability... you go to these events more to watch someone perform really skillfully rather than necessarily to dance, although a good scratch DJ will get people dancing as well. It can actually work really well, when you have a few minutes of intense technical trickery with everyone just gawping at the DJ, then a big track drops in and it gets everyone bouncing even more than they would have done if it was just mixed in house-style, I've had some awesome nights out at these kinds of nights and probably only danced for a small chunk of the night. It's like going to a see a live band play - you go to see people with a lot of skill performing, simply for the experience... if the band plays some energetic stuff and some more chilled stuff, you're not expected to dance for all of it. Not everything is about getting as many people as possible to dance for as much of the night as possible... And for the record, Shadow and Cut Chemist do some seriously mental shit - I wouldn't have said that using 8 decks between them was really out of the question.

Yeah, I'm aware of their reputation. I didn't think they'd be playing at the same time. BUt even then, c'mon, 8 decks, and 4 mixers?

I've tried to use this as an example of DJs using some cheap tricks to get attention, I know it was probably the wrong guys to point that out with. But when u suggset 8 decks between them, I think i's more probable. Maybe I should just delete my post, HEH.

quote:

Originally posted by Abhay Yeah, I'm aware of their reputation. I didn't think they'd be playing at the same time. BUt even then, c'mon, 8 decks, and 4 mixers? I've tried to use this as an example of DJs using some cheap tricks to get attention, I know it was probably the wrong guys to point that out with. But when u suggset 8 decks between them, I think i's more probable. Maybe I should just delete my post, HEH.

Hehe I do know what you mean though. But if it works...

Like I said in my original post, there are SO many DJs around you need to give yourself an edge, and a gimmick does that as well as anything else.

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Stu Cox |

Very good points Nem (as always) and abhay.

As a recent transplant from London to Los Angeles, I know exactly what you mean about the London scene - I clubbed through the 90's and began to DJ because of it. but over the years, I watched the scene deteriorate, not to mention the disappearance of just about every decent record store.

However, London is a slightly separate issue, because I believe it's got a big fall coming, and it's not overdue - dance music and the escapism it provided was born out of the early 90's recession. London is too expensive, and clubs find it hard to break even unless they charge extortionate amounts for entry and drinks - this means that they want to have music that encourages drinking, hence less emphasis by promoters on trance (if were honest) and EDM nights in general. Combined with this, there is also a cyclical nature to the scene, and I think trance/edm needed to go through a phase of re-invention for it's own good.

I remember speaking to a client at my old job and I then realised that he was a promoter for a well known london club night. I mentioned that I DJ and offered to give him my promo CD and basically he said he didn't need it - If I could bring about 30 people I could have a set! He was kind of embaressed in putting it like that (especially because the night was quite credible) but explained with the financial pressures on him (and promoting wasn't even his day job) he just couldn't afford not to operate like this.

I think it is shameful that promoters are even thinking that if they book a DJ and then don't make money that night, they would not pay the DJ for their work. It's one thing to ask a DJ to play for free or at a discounted rate (and all the big DJ's will do this depending on the club and their own reasons) but to say you will pay a dj then not because the night didn't make as much money as you hoped is bang out of order. Don't get me wrong, shit can happen and as long as the promoter deals with it the right way (i.e talk to the DJ and explain/cut a deal for another gig etc.) there shouldn't be problem.

The problem is that up and coming Dj's make themselves a weak position by being so desperate to play for a club. The "new" or unknown Dj's are easy for disreputable promoters to rip off.

Professional or well known DJ's (with an agent or management company) can just sue promoters that don't pay, and/or then none of the Dj's on their roster will play for that club again, word quickly spreads amongst the community which damages the club's reputation and any hope of getting big names again.

The sad thing is that there are some very bad DJ's who want the lifestyle or the profession, without a real love for the music or even an understanding of it. But they can sometimes be good at getting at getting a large group to show up and in the current climate this works....but only in the shortrun. The long term effect is that music on the whole deteriorates, and clubs gradually loose punters that want to hear great music.

The only way DJ's can improve their situation is to realise that the few superstars got there by years of plugging away, honing their skills, taking opportunities that presented at themselves right time and a large portion of luck. For every superstar there's a few 10's of thousands that will never make it.

The only way you can safeguard your own value as a DJ is to become the best you can possibly be.

Do it for the love of it and if you happen to get rich or famous along the way, well, count yourself lucky.

Lots of good points here. I definitely agree with Nem about the divide between the small DJs just getting bigger and bigger - Tiesto earns more every gig, loads of residents now play for free... but a lot of parties I know in London also seriously limit how much they'll pay for B-list DJs, and as a result they end up playing for much less than their standard fee, which sort of suggests that it is only the REALLY big DJs who are doing reasonably and everyone else is taking a bit of a hit.


On the flip side of the coin why is it so hard for promoters now?

It's almost as if every person who goes to a night is mates with the promoters or one of the DJs... which you expect for the small, new promotions, but for that to be the case with 80% of the attendees at the 1000+ cap events as well...

People say dance music isn't as popular anymore - I'd agree with that for trance, but house is more popular than ever and the same still applies, so I wouldn't agree that it's down to a lack of punters.


Is it just shoddy promotion which means that nights attract very few "randoms"?

Or is it because we now all know someone who's DJing somewhere in a given city on a given date and we're more likely to want to support them than check out a new night?

Or is it just oversaturation - too many club nights, too much competition?

The amount you can charge on the door considered 'acceptable' has gone up, venue hire prices haven't really changed, promotion costs have come down... what's changed?

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Stu Cox |

Clubs have always been commercial ventures, but some clubs/promoters have been wowed by the likes of Ministry, Fabric, Twilo, Gatecrasher, Cream etc.etc. and have seen the money that is to be made from a sprawling club empire.

In these cases the club/promoter is far more concerned with money from punters and the bar, than putting on a great night or delivering quality musical content.

Actually, there is a direct paralell as I mentioned in my above post, about how misguided noob DJ's just want the riches/lifestyle, without the musical understanding or talent, but can bring a crowd with them and therefore get booked - I think the same thing happens with some clubs/promoters: They want the empire but they don't realise is that the huge clubs grew not because they set out to with their prime goal of making money, but because they wanted to put on th best night possible or have the best music. The ones that did do this back in the day, became legendary and were able to then cash in on their following to build those empires.

I saw it first hand years ago with a trance night called Pickle - I remember going to the first one which was about 60 people in a darkened room (+ strobe) but the music was amazing, well organised and we had the time of lives. The night grew and grew and at one point they were throwing 3000+ people nights and turning several hundreds away at smaller venues. I was all just because the promoter loved the scene and put everything in to the club night - most of the promoting was done by word of mouth, which quickly spread because people ha such a good time.

I don't really remember the last time someone told me they went to a club that absolutely blew their mind or opened their eyes. This, I think, is the problem and is partly what has changed.

DJs spinning for free (in general) that's just out of the question. They gotta pay for the music that they buy, the gear that wears out. Travel expenses. Drinks. Etc.

I think ultimately it's the middle level and low level DJs that take a hit in income. High level, international caliber DJs will still do fine.

If a promoter is making money, there's no reason why they shouldn't pay you. I hear all this bull shit about the promoters that do raves for the younger crowd saying they don't make money, that's why they pay their DJs 50 bucks or nothing at all. That's bullshit. Why would you invest in something you can't make money off of? Not just money, why would you invest so much time into promoting when you're not gonna make money?

Another thing. All these low quality raves where they have like 8 DJs for 8 hours, for each room, so they have retarded nights with 16 DJs, all playing 1 hour sets. No wonder they don't get paid shit! Cus their money is spread so thin. If DJs went back to like it used to be and played 2 hour sets, the average DJ could at least make 100-200 for a 2 hour set. I'd rather go to a party with 4 really good DJs playing 2 hour sets than 16 DJs playing 1 hour sets where half of them suck.

When a promoter tells you they struggle to make money promoting. What they really mean is "They don't make enough for themselves, so they'll pay you 50 bucks to spin."

So... Don't get used, learn to know when you are. Work hard. Produce music. Learn how to promote. Learn how to network. And you will be successful.

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http://www.myspace.com/djkevincheung

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin_Cheung If a promoter is making money, there's no reason why they shouldn't pay you. I hear all this bull shit about the promoters that do raves for the younger crowd saying they don't make money, that's why they pay their DJs 50 bucks or nothing at all. That's bullshit. Why would you invest in something you can't make money off of? Not just money, why would you invest so much time into promoting when you're not gonna make money?

I know a lot of promoters who run nights because they love the buzz of seeing an event go off that they brought to fruition, not just to make money (although obviously they'd like to if they can).

I've been very closely involved with several promotions and I can promise you that certainly over here, there ARE quite a lot of nights who don't make any money and often lose money who aren't lying about it, rather than being greedy. And if you think about the time and effort put into an event - yes a DJ invests time and money in gear, music, practicing, getting to the gig and so on, but your average small promoter can easily spend over 50 hours plus several grand arranging and putting on a single night - if they fail to break even or only make a couple of hundred quid, is it really fair for the DJs to expect that money?


I do totally agree about the too-many-DJs-on-the-lineup scenario - it happens all the time over here, the reason being because it gives them more DJs to get to bring their mates (theoretically more than covering their own fee). And yes, there is a quite obvious trend that the nights who do this also pay their DJs fuckall, which suggests to me that booking loads of DJs to help sell tickets for them doesn't work as well as they claim it does... a bit of an indicator of crap promoters doing whatever they can to get by.

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Stu Cox |

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin_Cheung So... Don't get used, learn to know when you are. Work hard. Produce music. Learn how to promote. Learn how to network. And you will be successful.

I think that pretty much nails it in the head about how to get ahead these days