quote:

Originally posted by guerra-monstru Not really, the majority hadn't been exposed to diseases brought by the white man. So the more they were around them the more they came to disease. That is what obliterated them.

and lets not forget that many of them sold each other out as well...

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Originally posted by LazFX and lets not forget that many of them sold each other out as well...

it's not like all natives were one big happy family. the had enemies amongst each other, not different than how france and england were enemies during that period. however, that doesn't change the fact that the land where each native tribe called home was taken from them.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 your argument has zero legs to stand on. provide some sort of lesson to be learned. it appears you can't do that. EDIT: i don't even know what your point is by saying colonialism. that doesn't mean anything when said without context. why don't you try making an argument that has facts to support the conclusion.

You asked what lesson was to be learned? Everyone knows colonialism is not a just activity. Was it that hard to understand?

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i have no idea how much embassies cost to build and maintain, and i suspect you don't either. disregarding your irrelevant rant on a resistence and securing oil, you still haven't refuted the claim that america really isn't trying to steal iraqi land. at the end of the day, whether the iraqi government represents the entire iraqi population is irrelevant because the iraqi government, which will be made of iraqis, will control iraqi land and oil. whether they give favorable deals to americans isn't relevant either because the US will not be taking the oil without compensating some iraqis.

They sure don't cost over $1 billion JUST TO BUILD...

We rule Iraq. We own them. We are their occupiers. Without the occupation, the puppet government would fall. It's hilarious to think that Iraq belongs to Iraqis but whatever floats your boat...

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not really. the end goal isn't to permanently occupy iraqi. the idea behind taking the native lands was to keep and hold the native's land forever. the settlers never intended to give the land back. There will be a point in time when the US is no longer occupying iraqi. So, for arguments sake, if you want to say we occupying their land and have taken some sort of right to the land, that won't last because at some point it will revert back to total iraqi sovereignty.

Really, after building up the largest embassy in the world, deploying hundreds of thousands of troops in a war supposed won for more years than world war II lasted, the Republican candidate saying we should carry on our occupation "for as long as it takes' and also turning Iraq into another Westernized ally, AND giving in the middle of an Iraqi civil war. Yea, RIGHT, we're going to withdraw......

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You need to watch this... [[ LINK REMOVED ]]

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Originally posted by Krypton You asked what lesson was to be learned? Everyone knows colonialism is not a just activity. Was it that hard to understand?

because your not saying anything. i asked what lesson we learned and your response is colonialism. what does that mean? we learned colonialism....so what? what lesson should we take from that, if there is one? the west has benefited tremendously from colonialism. you have to be more precise.

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Originally posted by Krypton They sure don't cost over $1 billion JUST TO BUILD... We rule Iraq. We own them. We are their occupiers. Without the occupation, the puppet government would fall. It's hilarious to think that Iraq belongs to Iraqis but whatever floats your boat...

let's say obama wins and he pulls the military out of iraq in 5 years, what happens with iraq? does it revert to the american people?

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Originally posted by Krypton Really, after building up the largest embassy in the world, deploying hundreds of thousands of troops in a war supposed won for more years than world war II lasted, the Republican candidate saying we should carry on our occupation "for as long as it takes' and also turning Iraq into another Westernized ally, AND giving in the middle of an Iraqi civil war. Yea, RIGHT, we're going to withdraw......

first, your 1 billion amount is wrong. the number is $592 million, LINK which is still alot. but that embassy is also functioning as a safe haven to protect americans. it includes housing for US workers, etc.... so it's not the typical embassy. second, so what?! we didn't spend hundreds of billions of dollars in the war to take over the area of badghad that the embassy sits on. i'm not denying your original charge that the US went over there for control of iraqi oil. however, that is not the same thing as ownership. ownership means absolute dominion and control over that resource. In other words, iraq would have zero say or profit over that resource. until there is absolute proof that that is happening, the correct assumption is that the iraqis control their own resources.

EDIT: sorry, the embassy is 144 + 592 = 736

Last edited by jerZ07002 on May-02-2008 at 00:11

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 let's say obama wins and he pulls the military out of iraq in 5 years, what happens with iraq? does it revert to the american people?

What happens to Iraq? A Shiite Islamist regime will take power and solidify ties to Iran, that's what's going to happen. Now do you think the Americans are going to allow such a thing a to happen? No, which is why they are so invested in propping up this corrupt puppet regime which will fall if the occupation were to end.

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first, your 1 billion amount is wrong. the number is $592 million, LINK which is still alot. but that embassy is also functioning as a safe haven to protect americans. it includes housing for US workers, etc.... so it's not the typical embassy. second, so what?! we didn't spend hundreds of billions of dollars in the war to take over the area of badghad that the embassy sits on. i'm not denying your original charge that the US went over there for control of iraqi oil. however, that is not the same thing as ownership. ownership means absolute dominion and control over that resource. In other words, iraq would have zero say or profit over that resource. until there is absolute proof that that is happening, the correct assumption is that the iraqis control their own resources.

Actually, $1.3 billion to be exact...Read...http://vienna.usembassy.gov/en/down...df/iraq_emb.pdf

>>>> In his FY2006 budget request, President Bush did not include funds for construction
of the U.S. Mission in Iraq.1 A week after submitting his FY2006 budget to Congress, the
President sent Congress an FY2005 emergency supplemental funding request. Included
in the supplemental is more than $1.3 billion for the embassy in Iraq: $690 million for
logistical and security costs for the embassy in Baghdad and $658 million for construction
of the new embassy compound there. Included in the latter are the costs of housing, a
power plant, enhanced security, and expedited (24-month) construction.

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The Iraqi's don't even have clean water, 24 hour electricity, and being the #2 oil reserve, suffer from fuel shortages regularly. Wasn't it Mr. Rumfeld who said Iraqi oil revenues would pay for the occupation? Iraq, which was on the verge of being a failed state during Saddam's post-1991 reign, now is a full-fledged failed state...

Oh, the joys of colonialism. This is my point. Colonialism might have worked in obliterating the natives of North America, but it will not work today. I guess the leadership have yet to learn this....

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton You asked what lesson was to be learned? Everyone knows colonialism is not a just activity. Was it that hard to understand?

Lord forbid it seem that I'm defending the War in Iraq, but I must say, I have no earthly idea what kind of parallel you're trying to make here. Iraq really isn't comparable to the destruction of Native American culture.

quote:

They sure don't cost over $1 billion JUST TO BUILD... We rule Iraq. We own them. We are their occupiers. Without the occupation, the puppet government would fall. It's hilarious to think that Iraq belongs to Iraqis but whatever floats your boat...

One of the greatest arguments about why the War in Iraq is failing is precisely that we CAN'T control the government. If you remember, it was the President of Iran, and not the President of the United States that received the first diplomatic welcome.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7273431.stm

A red carpet and everything.

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Really, after building up the largest embassy in the world, deploying hundreds of thousands of troops in a war supposed won for more years than world war II lasted, the Republican candidate saying we should carry on our occupation "for as long as it takes' and also turning Iraq into another Westernized ally, AND giving in the middle of an Iraqi civil war. Yea, RIGHT, we're going to withdraw......

I'd only refer you to the USIP report on this one.

http://www.usip.org/pubs/usipeace_b.../iraq_surge.pdf

Withdrawing may not be the best option for the Iraqi people at this point. We might have missed the window of opportunity.

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Holly shit, I was at work for 9 hours, I come back and I missed all this crazy stuff??? Pkc is correct - shaolin's on the offensive! ... A bit harsh reply towards my post.

You see, for a long time I was very sympathetic with the natives' cause here in Canada. Its true, the lands that they received from the government many years ago were eventually stolen back from them through lawyers, clever political campaigns, manipulation, lies, money. No doubt this needs to be addressed, and it hasnt been properly done. And it never will be. Over a million of Canadians live today on the Grand River Tract areas that was awarded to natives in 1800s for their corageous fight to protect Canada. And the natives themselves today only have a small stretch of that same above-mentioned grant in their possession and barely even an access to the Grand River itself.

colonelcrisp and other Canucks are not lying when they are talking about the terrible mismanagement within the native reserves (the fault of the natives themselves). The reserves are technically self-run, they dont pay taxes and are independent as they always wanted. Thats where the problem comes in - they cant live on their own. They are dependent on subsidies and financial support from the Canadian government because they cant manage themselves and on their own ... they cant draw money to support their own communities because they dont do taxes.

Canadian government doesnt force the natives to smoke glue and do heavy drugs and abuse alcohol ... the natives choose themselves. Often enough them are involved in drug and crime syndicates - like the recently uncovered massive car theft ring that victimized hundreds of Canadians (outside of reserves). Thieves stole cars and drove them to the reserves where away from the Ontario police watch (native reserves have their own forces) they dismantled the cars and sold the parts.

I think Canadian government should give more funds to the native reserves (I have always strongly campaigned for that). Obviously not enough money given, when compared to the funding of non-native programs. I still criticize the Canadian government for this. But then again - I think the money will be badly mismanaged. Native reserves are poorly run.

Here's an example. I currently have a college co-op job with public works of my town in charge of recycling and green cart (composting) programs. We're one of the best in Canada and the world. As a very knowledgable employee of our programs, I do a lot of presentations, tours, and talks with the public, groups, classes and other groups.

So last month, I was very unfortunate to spend many hours of my and my department's time in preparation and setup for a booth/presentation/display for a native event called Protecting Mother Earth - Youth & Elders Gathering, attended by over 1 thousand natives and young people and event local politicians (non-natives) came by to do their political bullshit talk bla bla bla and thank natives for this 'n that, and something along those lines (aka try to win votes). The most important thing is that I got to learn A LOT about natives and what they are, how they think and what their goals are and so on.

First off - badly organized event - started 1 hour LATE, there was a lot of havoc and weak crowd control. My booth was the only non-native booth at the event, and we brought them a whole bunch of promotional stuff that even the regular white folks dont get from us (500 blue boxes, for example). First off - when the lead presenter announced his starting speech and introduce all booths and participants - my booth was conveniently "forgotten". Out of 1000+ natives who were there between 9am-3pm, only a handful (20-30 people max) ever stopped by to ask questions and get information. And their questions were "are you guys the ones who dump pollution into Lake Ontario?" "why does your city make so much garbage" "who came up with a stupid idea for a green cart program?" etc. etc. etc. It was so humiliating. They conveniently took all my promotional material before the event started and then just completely ignored me for the whole time being. I got even angrier when I found out that the natives DONT HAVE recycling at their reserves!!! And they were TELLING ME about how WHITE MAN is polluting the environment??? Rude questions, lots of attitude, put me on defensive the whole day. I was so flabbergasted, so frustrated. Fucking hypocrites.

Also, the content of the event - very little of native cultural stuff besides one native dance (which was very very impressive). One guy dressed up as a cowboy was talking about muppets for 1 hour and how he could make all muppet noises so good and he was making those noises to show how cool he was. In between he was talking about his youth at a reserve and to my dismay his story contained little of any native experiences (watching hockey/baseball, being a TV star, moving off a reserve???). Most of speakers had little of native experiences to share. I felt like I was in a Canadian crowd, except with a big attitude. When I was talking to some of the youth, they were interrupting and making numerous references to sports, media, music artists - which I doubt is the fault of the Canadian government.

The native elders were clearly respected by the youth and other atendees, but it was very clear that the elders had very little of message or advice to give to the crowd. There wasnt any environmental messages at all, no recommendations to keep the environment cleaner and better, just one big native gathering with absolutely no message or plan.

I did get to see many native flags and paraphernelia. Nowadays you won't find a native without some sort of native distinction: they always have to pride themselves, most commonly by showcasing a native car flag. Oh, and natives LOVE to shop outside of reserves. Obviously though they hate the white man, they love to shop at our stores.

I find prominent natives tend to move out of the reserves and into the Canadian cities and countryside. That sends a message.

My attendance at that event opened my eyes like never before, I have never thought the natives were like that. Then when next week I saw burning cars and burning tires, barricades and white men getting beaten by natives on television, it became even more clear. I realized that natives have problems and they blame it on us. They try to shift the blame on us to make themselves feel good. But it doesnt solve their problems. Yes they need help, but the way they treat non-native population is not going to help their cause. Ask Caledonia residents (not where I live) who are very pissed off because natives have caused them so many problems. Caledonia businesses and economy has been crippled in recent months from the dam Douglas Estate dispute. I blame the government for inaction to give the bloody small stretch of disputed land to the natives - the land the natives sold to developers but now they want back, and they highjacked the entire community for this.

Natives have been known to cause a lot of damage during these protests - recently an American border patrol vehicle unfortunately happened to be driving outside of the reserve but not very far from a group of natives. Natives forced the men out of the car and then trash-drove the vehicle, destroying it and stealing their valuables (which were not recovered).

Whats funny is that they got away with it pretty much. But one of the natives was an idiot enough to try to cross into USA, and he was arrested since his name came up as one of the guys who destroyed the American vehicle.

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You see, I am Russian, but I am not a fucking moron and I dont run in the streets and wave Russian flag and dont claim how great Russia is (despite my defense of Russia on the forums). I have a brain. I know where I live, and I respect it. I have a Canadian flag hoisted above my house, not even a Russian flag - I keep in my room.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Oh, the joys of colonialism. This is my point. Colonialism might have worked in obliterating the natives of North America, but it will not work today. I guess the leadership have yet to learn this....

Neither of those examples is colonialism...

In fact, if there was a spectrum of relationships between states, and colonialism was somewhere in the middle, those two examples would stand on opposite sides of that middle.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Their culture and way of life has been destroyed, their people massacred, their women raped. What the fuck do you expect? Some modern western PC bullshit of going along to get along? What fucking justification is there for their persecution.

You'll be surprised as to how many times I come through despicable stories of native violence AGAINST natives. Like a a group of native men who castrated small boys for their sexual pleasures; women go missing and native men arrested for their murders; massive alcoholism and drive-by shootings on native reserves BY NATIVE YOUTHS.

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Dude, seriously mag, you're an intelligent guy with a sense of ethics. What the fuck is up with all this nationalistic bullshit? Haven't you been disillusioned with the concept of nation states yet?

You sound like some from New World Order / Illuminati who want to create a one large state on Earth and abolish countries ... one world leader. I am against that. Nation-states arent perfect, but a one-government world will be the total prison that will make Hitler look like a joke. Nationalism is the only way today to protect your own cultural values, history, language .... look at Canadian natives - they lost their independence and their lost their culture. Same with some other cultures who lost their independence, even the Chechens deserve better (and you're hearing a Russian saying this). A lot of things get lost when borders go down. Look at Kosovo - torn away from Serbian traditional heartland and Serbian culture, people and its monuments are being destroyed.

You should look in your own backyard, shaolin, and read about the massive and brutal American treatment of natives in the past, as late as in 1950s, forbidding the basic things like certain native dances for Christ's sakes. Much worse than what Canadians are doing right now.

Maybe I digressed from the topic. I just see parallels between the plunderers of North America and today in Iraq.

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quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium You should look in your own backyard, shaolin, and read about the massive and brutal American treatment of natives in the past, as late as in 1950s, forbidding the basic things like certain native dances for Christ's sakes. Much worse than what Canadians are doing right now.

this is true....