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SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester

To repeat what everyone has said: Live/electronic fusions are as old as the hills and pretty damn regressive.

In fact, my prediction for the future direction of electronic music would be summarised as "the death of the song". Tracks as coherent, complete pieces of music with defined boundaries are over. DJs won't buy tracks anymore, they'll buy melodies, beats and vocals seperately. Hawtin was talking recently about the idea of selling a hi-hat pattern which a DJ could integrate with any track. The future is fragmentation.


___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Old Post May-10-2008 22:08  England
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HaeD
Tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal

selling a hi hat pattern, thats like selling an undone artwork, unworthy of being sold.


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Old Post May-10-2008 22:18  Canada
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SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester

quote:
Originally posted by HaeD
selling a hi hat pattern, thats like selling an undone artwork, unworthy of being sold.


No it isn't. That analogy is poor to the point of being false. I'm not talking about selling a hi-hat pattern just to listen to, I'm talking about selling a hi-hat to be used.

DJs are collagists anyway- they create a larger picture out of smaller musical moments. Acapellas have been used for years too. And why should we have to suffer good tracks ruined by poor elements? A track will no longer have a poor bassline if you can use a better one instead.


___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Old Post May-10-2008 22:23  England
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nefardec
Tranceaddict in tranning



Registered: Oct 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
To repeat what everyone has said: Live/electronic fusions are as old as the hills and pretty damn regressive.

In fact, my prediction for the future direction of electronic music would be summarised as "the death of the song". Tracks as coherent, complete pieces of music with defined boundaries are over. DJs won't buy tracks anymore, they'll buy melodies, beats and vocals seperately. Hawtin was talking recently about the idea of selling a hi-hat pattern which a DJ could integrate with any track. The future is fragmentation.


i see that as becoming more commonplace in the immediate future. still though I think song-based dance music will continue to hold.


I think the farther future lies in automatic, live, parametric modulation of dance music.

elimination of the deejay and the artist altogether really.

replacing deejays will be parametric modelers and programmers.


supermarkets and what not will use it to constantly keep a strongly branded 'muzak' changing and encouraging consumption in the store.

hotels and cheap lounges will use it to create ambience

my guess is that major record labels will prevent anything like this to replace the hit and the star, so I wouldn't expect to see it in top 40 clubs, but maybe automatic deejay systems which read, select, mix, etc might be used.

Old Post May-10-2008 22:47 
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MrJiveBoJingles
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: U.S.

They could also sell MIDI patterns to be used live in the synths of whichever producer-DJ-perfomer-person bought them.

Live sequencing and improvisatory arrangement, modification, and combination of tracks, with performers creating a unique and seamless stream of music during every "set," with things they created themselves beforehand, things they thought up on the fly, and things they bought or borrowed from other producers all blending together.

Old Post May-10-2008 22:50  United States
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Pete K
Chasing the sun



Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Music City
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I think this is where the future of electronic mu

quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
yeah if anything i think that mindset is regressive


and on the other hand you have Girl Talk, who revels in how little of a musician he is.

(what the fuck is he doing at DEMF?)


lol he's a party rocker

he'll bring all the suburban hipsters out.

Old Post May-10-2008 22:52 
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SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester

quote:
Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
They could also sell MIDI patterns to be used live in the synths of whichever producer-DJ-perfomer-person bought them.

Live sequencing and improvisatory arrangement, modification, and combination of tracks, with performers creating a unique and seamless stream of music during every "set," with things they created themselves beforehand, things they thought up on the fly, and things they bought or borrowed from other producers all blending together.



It sounds fucking awesome, doesn't it?

quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
I think the farther future lies in automatic, live, parametric modulation of dance music.

elimination of the deejay and the artist altogether really.

replacing deejays will be parametric modelers and programmers.


I know you've mentioned it before but it's something that seems too out-there for anything but the most experimental of scenes right now. I can't see a precedent for the idea to be profitable.


___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Old Post May-10-2008 22:55  England
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PETRAN
Like Antennas To Heaven



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Volos, Greece

quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
No it isn't. That analogy is poor to the point of being false. I'm not talking about selling a hi-hat pattern just to listen to, I'm talking about selling a hi-hat to be used.

DJs are collagists anyway- they create a larger picture out of smaller musical moments. Acapellas have been used for years too. And why should we have to suffer good tracks ruined by poor elements? A track will no longer have a poor bassline if you can use a better one instead.




I find it very unrealistic though. I doubt that anyone would pay for a hi-hat whilst he/she can make one within a matter of seconds in Ableton, and even better, create it in ways that he/she precisely wants and even within the context of a live performance. Plus, this "fragmented-loops" thing could work for very loopy music, like minimal techno or very repeatetive house or something, because i doubt how one can make and sell a melodic lead-line or a melodic progressing bassline, since these elements often go hand-in-hand with the other elements of the track. Furthermore, an increase in EDM's musical complexity (more complex tracks with complex rhythms and melodies)would be at odds with such a "single-simple-loop" tracks.

I rather see a more "interactive/live" future, in which software sequencers like Ableton will allow djs to radically change existing tracks, or literally create tracks from zero whilst performing live, adding loops and melodies in the process. Pretty much what sasha was doing.

Or the opposite could happen. Maybe people would come to hate the "digitization" of everything and go back to more traditional, analogue ways. It would be rather cool if djs are substituted by groups of electronic musicians-performers, in which a drummer would play the rhythms, a keyboard player the synths and so-on.


I guess that some loops could appear, in the same way that we have acapellas and dj-tool-loops today, but these would still be in the "dj-tools" section and would possibly not represent the norm.

Old Post May-10-2008 23:06  Greece
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sljiva
experimental



Registered: Aug 2005
Location: Zagreb

What's the purpose of that really? DJs/parametric modelers will have 50+% harder time realizing their performance and stupid average Joe on drugs in public will have like 10% better time (if not less).

I mean, I'm all for new ways of performing, but the idea presented by most of you here doesn't seem profitable and I doubt it will ever kick off.

Old Post May-10-2008 23:13  Croatia
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PETRAN
Like Antennas To Heaven



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Volos, Greece

quote:
Originally posted by sljiva
What's the purpose of that really? DJs/parametric modelers will have 50+% harder time realizing their performance and stupid average Joe on drugs in public will have like 10% better time (if not less).




Well, you have a point lol. I mean you can see it happening even now. Sasha was very excited in using Ableton, "fucking" with the tracks live etc. but i learn that he stopped doing that already. Plus,whilst many other djs use Ableton-live and similar stuff in order to perform, they don't seem to go very far with these high-tech tools. They probably realised that their extra effort is not making a substantial difference on the numbers of clubbers/fans, neither to the XTC-driven brains of the clubbers themselves.




This doesn't contradict the fact that live djs/acts would still make albums and people would come to listen to them because they like their albums. Like in rock concerts really. The oldest thing in music.

Old Post May-10-2008 23:34  Greece
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SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester

quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
I find it very unrealistic though. I doubt that anyone would pay for a hi-hat whilst he/she can make one within a matter of seconds in Ableton, and even better, create it in ways that he/she precisely wants and even within the context of a live performance.


Depends on the cost, depends on the pattern.

quote:
Plus, this "fragmented-loops" thing could work for very loopy music, like minimal techno or very repeatetive house or something, because i doubt how one can make and sell a melodic lead-line or a melodic progressing bassline, since these elements often go hand-in-hand with the other elements of the track. Furthermore, an increase in EDM's musical complexity (more complex tracks with complex rhythms and melodies)would be at odds with such a "single-simple-loop" tracks.


Not true. Listen to DJ Shadow and then tell me that tracks built out of elements of pre-existing tracks have to "single-simple-loop" with no melodic counterpoint or complexity.

quote:
I rather see a more "interactive/live" future, in which software sequencers like Ableton will allow djs to radically change existing tracks, or literally create tracks from zero whilst performing live, adding loops and melodies in the process. Pretty much what sasha was doing.


That's essentially how acts like Orbital have been performing live for almost twenty years. It has never become the next big thing and I don't see it suddenly happening.


___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Old Post May-10-2008 23:34  England
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PETRAN
Like Antennas To Heaven



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Volos, Greece

quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J



Not true. Listen to DJ Shadow and then tell me that tracks built out of elements of pre-existing tracks have to "single-simple-loop" with no melodic counterpoint or complexity.



Yeah but Dj Shadow's music (or Amon Tobin's for that matter) is a very special kind of experimental abstract hip-hop which is usually build on top of very basic loops.


Imagine a melodic lead-line, like the one featured in "Lush 3.1" by Orbital, sold on its own. Now, because this lead-line is musically complex, it would be rather difficult to find elements like bass-lines to match it (in terms of notes). This idea simply doesn't seem to work in types of music that retain a certain musicianship. Unless all future EDM is a type of abstract tapestry made of micro-loops with no specific themes or melodies or whatsoever. Or basic minimal techno...



As for the live-pa thing, i know that it is very old, thats what i supported in my first post. This is why i said in my previous post, that i would "like" to see it done ("it would be rather cool"...bla bla). It was not a prediction or whatsoever.

Old Post May-10-2008 23:46  Greece
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