Like I said before...

The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing to do with freedom or so-called liberation. It has everything to do with securing a strategic position in energy supplies. It's all about Iraq's oil reserves and Afghanistan's position geographically in the region for pipelines.

Also notice how the opium crops grew exponentially after 2001. And yet we claim to be fighting this "War on Drugs". War on Drugs my ass...




I'm going off on a tangent, but I also think narcotics are purposefully outlawed so as to maintain the black market status of this sector, and continue the subjugation of the lower classes of society. An otherwise sober lower class would be a threat to any capitalist government which wants to prevent any revolutions. It's a distraction from the world at large.

/tangent

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Originally posted by Krypton The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing to do with freedom or so-called liberation.

sure, but that doesn't mean that they can't be beneficial by-products.

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Originally posted by Krypton It has everything to do with securing a strategic position in energy supplies.

wrong. afghanistan was about retaliating for 911, pure and simple. afghanistan has nothing the US might want in regards to oil supplies, despite the supposed afghani pipeline that conspiracy theorists always crow about.

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Originally posted by Krypton It's all about Iraq's oil reserves and Afghanistan's position geographically in the region for pipelines.

as above.

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Originally posted by Krypton I'm going off on a tangent, but I also think narcotics are purposefully outlawed so as to maintain the black market status of this sector, and continue the subjugation of the lower classes of society. An otherwise sober lower class would be a threat to any capitalist government which wants to prevent any revolutions. It's a distraction from the world at large.

pure, unadulterated nonsense. were you born 20 years ago you'd be a fully-fledged communist

the reason opium is going nuts is that the US doesn't have the manpower to both hold the country AND control what drug growers are doing. its that simple.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN sure, but that doesn't mean that they can't be beneficial by-products.

There are no beneficial by-products from having your house blown up by bombs, mortars, bullets, and the likes of war. Last time I checked, there are millions of refugees as direct result of both invasions.

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wrong. afghanistan was about retaliating for 911, pure and simple. afghanistan has nothing the US might want in regards to oil supplies, despite the supposed afghani pipeline that conspiracy theorists always crow about.

Name one Afghani hi-jacker on any of the 9/11 planes. The Taliban had no knowledge there was even a plan to strike America. They were focused on defeating the Northern Alliance.

As for the pipeline, it's not a conspiracy. I suggest you research "CentGas Consortum", "Unical", and the "Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline". In the 1990's, there was intense negociation with who? The Taliban over building a natural gas pipeline through Afghanistan. The US company Unical even helped the Taliban's takeover of Kabul so as to speed up any possible deal with them. But things fell apart, and the deal went nowhere. With the Taliban in power, Unical would not get its favorable terms, niether would CentGas or any other party. So it is my belief in the necessity of the "power that be" to eliminate the Taliban so as to not have to negotiate on their terms an Afghan pipeline.

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pure, unadulterated nonsense. were you born 20 years ago you'd be a fully-fledged communist

LOL...I was born 21 year ago ...I'm a leftie, what can I say? 2-3 years ago though, I was a staunch Bush conservative. The president's fuck-ups changed all that

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the reason opium is going nuts is that the US doesn't have the manpower to both hold the country AND control what drug growers are doing. its that simple.

The Taliban sure did a good job of it. Glad to see we f0cked that up too...

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Originally posted by Krypton There are no beneficial by-products from having your house blown up by bombs, mortars, bullets, and the likes of war. Last time I checked, there are millions of refugees as direct result of both invasions.

lets keep this discussion to afghanistan shall we?

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Originally posted by Krypton Name one Afghani hi-jacker on any of the 9/11 planes. The Taliban had no knowledge there was even a plan to strike America. They were focused on defeating the Northern Alliance.

irrelevant. al qaida's base of operations were in afghanistan, and they were being harboured by the taliban, one of the most oppressive governments in human history. its a no-brainer from where im sitting.

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Originally posted by Krypton As for the pipeline, it's not a conspiracy. I suggest you research "CentGas Consortum", "Unical", and the "Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline". In the 1990's, there was intense negociation with who? The Taliban over building a natural gas pipeline through Afghanistan. The US company Unical even helped the Taliban's takeover of Kabul so as to speed up any possible deal with them. But things fell apart, and the deal went nowhere. With the Taliban in power, Unical would not get its favorable terms, niether would CentGas or any other party. So it is my belief in the necessity of the "power that be" to eliminate the Taliban so as to not have to negotiate on their terms an Afghan pipeline.

i think you put FAR too much stock in this theory. now that the US (more or less) controls afghanistan, where is the fast-tracking of the pipeline? surely, if this was the #1 reason for invasion, then the pipeline would already be in development?

i dont find this argument remotely compelling.

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Originally posted by Krypton LOL...I was born 21 year ago ...I'm a leftie, what can I say? 2-3 years ago though, I was a staunch Bush conservative. The president's fuck-ups changed all that

sorry, i meant active 20 years ago the pipeline for war conspiracy certainly reeks of the old and tired leftist arguments

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Originally posted by Krypton The Taliban sure did a good job of it. Glad to see we f0cked that up too...

right, so youre of the opinion that the rule of law is more important than personal liberty? you will find many countries' blackmarkets come into their own when faced with less painful means of enforcement.

praising the taliban for their stance on opium production is akin to praising hitler for the autobahns or suadi arabia for their lack of alcohol-fuelled violence.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Whoa, whoa, WHOA. Hold it there. I am in no way blaming the Canadians, dont you try to offend me there, big guy. I love Canada. I just think that our Canadian boys are dying for absolutely NOTHING. Its time for this to end. The recent Afghan jail daring attack easily wiped out any recent Canadian progress in Kandahar. Plus, it happened right under their noses! Maaaan, I almost feel insulted and sort of pissed. We are back at ground zero and Taliban are now attacking Kandahar positions as we speak. --- Seriously, man, what good has the Canadian mission been to Afghanistan anyway? I guess we should look at the rising opium exports from Afghanistan as a positive sign!

You know we're there BECAUSE WE WERE ASKED TO BE THERE...

Maybe you forgot this speech by Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai given at the House of Commons thanking us?

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/media_gallery.a...edia_id=448#tag

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Now that the prisoners have escaped,the US has a better excuse to continue the war on terror.It seems like we are running in circles there.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lets keep this discussion to afghanistan shall we?

Ahh, but let's get back to your original point. There are by-products from unjustified occupations? That's the logic of your argument.

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irrelevant. al qaida's base of operations were in afghanistan, and they were being harboured by the taliban, one of the most oppressive governments in human history. its a no-brainer from where im sitting.

Firstly, the Taliban did not know 9/11 was going to happen. Secondly, when the Americans demanded for bin Laden, the Taliban rejected the demand because they were not given evidence of his crime. But it does not stop there...

On October 7, 2001, before the onset of military operations, the Taliban made an open offer to try bin Laden in Afghanistan in an Islamic court.[19] This counteroffer was immediately rejected by the U.S. as insufficient. It was not until October 14, 2001, seven days after war had broken out, that the Taliban openly offered to hand bin Laden over to a third country for trial, but only if they were given evidence of bin Laden's involvement in 9/11.[20]

Hmm. Seems like the invasion was a done deal no matter what, huh? Like any government who recieves an extradition request, the Taliban wanted that evidence. If we want to arrest someone in a foreign country, most countries request the evidence. So why did they invade? There was no justifiable reason to. I don't believe one word of propaganda from our governments concerning the justification of a war of aggression.

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i think you put FAR too much stock in this theory. now that the US (more or less) controls afghanistan, where is the fast-tracking of the pipeline? surely, if this was the #1 reason for invasion, then the pipeline would already be in development? i dont find this argument remotely compelling.

How can you build a natural gas pipeline in a war zone? What investor would invest in that? I think that is one of the reasons NATO is sending more soldiers. Otherwise, why fight a war for the Afghans? Tell me? No nation in their right mind would fight a war for a some third world tribal nation half way around the world.

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right, so youre of the opinion that the rule of law is more important than personal liberty? you will find many countries' blackmarkets come into their own when faced with less painful means of enforcement.

Of course not. Which is why we live here in a democracy. Over there, in Afghanistan, it was not a democracy. There was no personal liberty. That's just too bad. But you know, 7 years later, an occupation has failed to win on any strategic level. It kind of goes with the saying, "You can win every battle, but lose the war." Why are we supposedly fighting for the Afghans? What the f0ck have the Afghans done for us? That we have to engage in an ongoing 7 year war against tribal militias. This is why I think it's all bullshit. We don't fight for freedom. For the Afghans or for anyone else. The occupation of Afghanistan is for the best interests of the occupiers, not the Afghans.

I feel sorry Afghanistan was under oppression. But that does not justify an invasion and occupation. The Taliban did not carry out 9/11. They offered to hand over bin Laden, but yet the US refused. Think about it PKC...

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praising the taliban for their stance on opium production is akin to praising hitler for the autobahns or suadi arabia for their lack of alcohol-fuelled violence.

All good things but irrelevant to the overall subject. I don't cancel out bad things from good. Yes they were oppressive, but it is a true statement that the Taliban did an excellent job of eliminating opium cultivation in a place where 75% of the world's herione came from.

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The west has ambitions far beyond what they say. Fighting against terrorism, or for freedom, or whatever else they say is pure an simple lies. Repeated to us, over, and over, and over, and over again in across the corporate media. We've been hearing it for 7 years now. Let me tell you what's really going on. Political Islam stands in the way of the Western Alliance's ambitions to dominate the Middle East. It's the age-old East versus West conflict. I am of the opinion we have no right to dominate the Middle East.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r You know we're there BECAUSE WE WERE ASKED TO BE THERE... Maybe you forgot this speech by Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai given at the House of Commons thanking us? http://pm.gc.ca/eng/media_gallery.a...edia_id=448#tag

He wasnt thanking us,more like begging for more troops and money.

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quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer He wasnt thanking us,more like begging for more troops and money.

No and Yes.
He did thank us (watch the video).
And yes, he was of course asking us to stay...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r No and Yes. He did thank us (watch the video). And yes, he was of course asking us to stay...

and sadly his trick worked and Harper extended "the mission".

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Ahh, but let's get back to your original point. There are by-products from unjustified occupations? That's the logic of your argument.

i dont see it as unjustified.

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Originally posted by Krypton Firstly, the Taliban did not know 9/11 was going to happen.

so?

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Originally posted by Krypton On October 7, 2001, before the onset of military operations, the Taliban made an open offer to try bin Laden in Afghanistan in an Islamic court.[19]

oh yes, i forgot. the taliban, centre for (modern) legal fairness and impartiality!

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Originally posted by Krypton This counteroffer was immediately rejected by the U.S. as insufficient.

as they should have.

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Originally posted by Krypton It was not until October 14, 2001, seven days after war had broken out, that the Taliban openly offered to hand bin Laden over to a third country for trial, but only if they were given evidence of bin Laden's involvement in 9/11.[20]

yeah, so they decided to change their mind once the war began, so what? the calls for "evidence" are a complete smokescreen, would you like me to go searching for all the punishments metered out under the taliban that wouldn't have been satisfied by the evidence?

i cant believe youre falling for their bullshit.

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Originally posted by Krypton Hmm. Seems like the invasion was a done deal no matter what, huh? Like any government who recieves an extradition request, the Taliban wanted that evidence. If we want to arrest someone in a foreign country, most countries request the evidence. So why did they invade? There was no justifiable reason to. I don't believe one word of propaganda from our governments concerning the justification of a war of aggression.

everyone knew osama did it. hell, i knew as soon as the second plane hit the towers. the taliban fucking knew too, you are absolutely kidding yourself if youre arguing they didn't know. they even forced him to lie and say it wasn't him. the taliban knew that al qaida were retreating into the mountains in anticipation of US retaliation, they were retreating because their conscience was clear perhaps?

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Originally posted by Krypton How can you build a natural gas pipeline in a war zone? What investor would invest in that?

ooohhhh, right. so youre saying that not only was the pipeline the #1 reason for the invasion, but it was so damned important that they didn't bother to secure the country before moving onto iraq so that now they can't build their pipeline? seriously, you need to lay off the trancer-x fruit juice. nothing youre saying makes any sense.

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Originally posted by Krypton I think that is one of the reasons NATO is sending more soldiers. Otherwise, why fight a war for the Afghans? Tell me? No nation in their right mind would fight a war for a some third world tribal nation half way around the world.

they're fighting to restore law and order in the country, as well as stamping out terrorist influence. yes, its that simple. otherwise they'd have a controlled military zone in the region of the pipeline.

the only pipe here is the one you're smoking.

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Originally posted by Krypton Of course not. Which is why we live here in a democracy. Over there, in Afghanistan, it was not a democracy. There was no personal liberty. That's just too bad. But you know, 7 years later, an occupation has failed to win on any strategic level. It kind of goes with the saying, "You can win every battle, but lose the war." Why are we supposedly fighting for the Afghans? What the f0ck have the Afghans done for us? That we have to engage in an ongoing 7 year war against tribal militias. This is why I think it's all bullshit. We don't fight for freedom. For the Afghans or for anyone else. The occupation of Afghanistan is for the best interests of the occupiers, not the Afghans.

and what interests are you talking about? you keep banging on about a fictitious pipeline that isn't even in its infancy, do you have any more than that. you ignore the fact that they have been asked to stay by the duly elected government.

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Originally posted by Krypton I feel sorry Afghanistan was under oppression. But that does not justify an invasion and occupation. The Taliban did not carry out 9/11. They offered to hand over bin Laden, but yet the US refused. Think about it PKC...

yeah, everyone would be much happier with the taliban back in charge im sure.

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Originally posted by Krypton All good things but irrelevant to the overall subject. I don't cancel out bad things from good. Yes they were oppressive, but it is a true statement that the Taliban did an excellent job of eliminating opium cultivation in a place where 75% of the world's herione came from.

honestly, i couldnt give a flying fuck about the opium production, so pointing to it as a success story from the taliban administration means nothing to me, and is rather irrelevant to the discussion.

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Originally posted by Krypton Let me tell you what's really going on. Political Islam stands in the way of the Western Alliance's ambitions to dominate the Middle East. It's the age-old East versus West conflict. I am of the opinion we have no right to dominate the Middle East.

simplistic and disingenuous nonsense. just easily-delivered rhetoric devoid of any actual substance.

the neocon agenda is actually concerned with nation-building to a certain extent, and i see no reason to think they don't believe their own rhetoric, however misplaced it might be. they see america as the shining beacon of freedom when compared to the autocratic governments in the region. they wanted to increase american influence in the region, topple hostile dictatorships and hopefully engender democratic change in the region, whilst removing oil control from people like saddam.

whether their goals were wrong or right is immaterial to me, all i do know is that they didn't invade to build a pipeline, and anyone that thinks so really needs to grow the fuck up.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Now that the prisoners have escaped,the US has a better excuse to continue the war on terror.It seems like we are running in circles there.

Hehehe..