quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov You really think that if MI5 wanted to foster fear of Arab Muslims, they'd choose a white guy from Britain to carry out a failed bombing?

Last time I checked not all Muslims are Arab. And that's a ridiculous over simplification of (only part) of what I said. Did you miss the part about "desert tales" ?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

You know what I see folks? I see shitload of money (yours or government (eg. your tax dollars) invested into college education (or school education) to deliver all kinds of win in this thread.

Critical thinking, conspiracy theories, not to mention all the keen debate, let alone typing skills - all of them weighed, measured, and applied as rigorously as slicktops to the tarmac in F1 races. Not a nanometer of surface is unused, not a ****hair of gap - full contact, full bore, all 10 cyllinders, redlined, FULL SPEED AHEAD!

Wroom wrooooooooooom!!! Godspeed, pilots of thought!


I'm off to refresh my margarita pitcher. Cheers!

___________________

quote:

No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don’t want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life’s change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.

--Steve Jobs (1955 - 2011)

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z There's not much need to push in new legislation

there's not much need to pass new legislation in the UK either. the place is a "virtual" fortress. it's been that way.

and Laz, who is not bi-sexual btw, has a valid point. countries like the UK and Spain are not starngers to terror whatever the motivation. something like Islamic terror comes along and all of a sudden it's the government thats responsible?

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I gave you "evidence" or reasons rather as to why I'm skeptical...

no, what you gave was your regular sermon on how nothing in the western establishment is to be trusted, which funnily enough i agree with, assuming the evidence supports the claim. unfortunately for you, this latest incident doesn't really have any yet.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z if you choose to ignore or obfuscate it... oh well, that's just too bad then. Part of critical thinking is not restricting yourself to any paradigms, suspending biases and assumptions (especially ones that directly contradict the lessons of history), and avoiding limitations any framework (wheather real or conttrived) imposes on thought. So it's illogical or irrational of me to be skeptical of claims coming from instituions and / or organizations that have a track record of lack of transparency, deception, coersion of domestic populations, unprovoked military agression, and false flag terrorism?

im sorry to do this to you shaolin, but

10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists
A useful guide by Donna Ferentes

9. Using previous conspiracies as evidence to support their claims. This argument invokes scandals like the Birmingham Six, the Bologna station bombings, the Zinoviev letter and so on in order to try and demonstrate that their conspiracy theory should be accorded some weight (because it's “happened before”.) They do not pause to reflect that the conspiracies they are touting are almost always far more unlikely and complicated than the real-life conspiracies with which they make comparison, or that the fact that something might potentially happen does not, in and of itself, make it anything other than extremely unlikely.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z There's a word of a difference between accusations and suspecion.

but, asides from the supposed activities of MI5 (i would enjoy reading a collection of MI-5s previous bombings of UK citizens if you have it handy) what else do you have?

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Oddly enough, expressing that predictabley generates a juvenile reponse from you. Q was actually trying to have a discussion with me, as opposed to you who trolls "anti-establishment" positions everywhere. It's really beggining to get old... and it doesn't exactly boost your credibility eigther.

perhaps i feel that an accusation (or suspicion or other synonym we choose to arrive at) without any evidence to support it deserves nothing more than a patronising quip?

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z There, I answered all your questions. Oddly enough you didn't address a thing I said or answer any of my questions. Obfuscating the points I made by failing to address them and twist the rest ridiculously out of context to me sounds like that special list of "ten commandments" you have is infact your bible . Try addressing what I say for once, the entire argument preferably if you wish to point out flaws in it or my reasoning. Not selective tid bits you can misrepresent.

um, what points did you make? all i saw was a bunch of shaolin's bias screaming to get out.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Make a list of different perspectives I have on various issues and then please show me how much of it falls in the category of "constant attraction to ideas that have no evidence to support them."

well, anything to do with 911 for starters.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z And for God's sake, learn how to differentiate between evidence and proof. You say you've studied logic formally in college, you must have been a terrible at it as you don't know the difference between the two terms.

yeah, hated principles of argument. bored the crap out of me like most philosophy. i am in no way confusing evidence and proof, what you have argued thus far isn't even evidence. it is rationale for suspicion. but "suspicion" alone isn't really enough to say

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Sounds like an MI5 job to me

now is it? again, i want evidence directly related to this incident, and this incident only. a rather lack-lustre false flag operation, wouldnt you admit? no deaths, no spectacular media scenes in order to create (as you suggest) fear and distrust?

i know some people hate to realise it, but islamic extremists generate enough fear and distrust of muslims all by themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z You acknowledged how these instituions have historically operated, yet that's not reason enough to suspect them of displaying similar behaviour? LOL, alright. I guess next time you know someone's a rapist and murderer, you should be comfortable with them taking your friend on a date.

well, i didnt really acknowledge such, but i do realise that western governments have done things they're not proud of. still though, i am unaware of any bombings being carried out against UK citizens by MI 5 or 6.

i know the western ideals of law must really stick in your craw sometimes but one is innocent until proven guilty, and one cannot have ones previous crimes used as evidence to convict them of their current charge.

so, do you believe in the innocent until proven guilty system of law? and if so, why do you have such a strong tendency to condemn those without a correspondingly strong amount of evidence?

if there isn't enough evidence to satisfy a court just yet, then i must ask why you feel equipped to engage in libel against members of her majesty's government when all indications (so far) suggest the act of an islamic extremist?

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quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Sounds like an MI5 job to me, to fucking ridiculous for anyone else to pull off.

Jesus Christ I post a thread that I think will become dominated by anti-Muslim rants from Laz and Firestarter and I come back after a few days to discover that I was wrong, and this has somehow turned into a conspiraloon thread!!

Why would Mi5 need to do this? What would they achieve? The only reasons they would do this are to get more funding or to get more of a free reign to do their job. Following 9/11 and the July 7th bombings in London, they pretty much were given all the funding they needed and new laws introduced to allow them to act more freely. There is nothing else for them to achieve that they don't have already so why they would set a bomb off in the most insignificant town in the country is beyond me...

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Last time I checked not all Muslims are Arab. And that's a ridiculous over simplification of (only part) of what I said. Did you miss the part about "desert tales" ?

While you're correct, not all Muslims are Arabs, if one's goal were to incite fear of Islamic terrorism within a population to a suffcient extent that the population were willing to give up their liberties then it makes sense that you would stage your "bombing" such that it would best fit the pre-existing idea of a terrorist. If MI5 were behind this for the reasons you suggest would it not make more sense that they would pick a stooge who looks like what the average Britton believes an Islamic extremist looks like and can be shown to have had long standing anti-west political views. This is a natural choice as it is less of a departure for the public to fear a person that fits a pre-existing mold they've come to fear rather then someone who does not. If this were a staged propaganda event MI5 is really working against their goal by having a confused white dude with a history of mental instability who lives with his mother take the fall... that doesn't make me afraid of Islamic terrorists, it makes me afraid of depressed losers who can't find a job and are off their meds.

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Jesus Christ I post a thread that I think will become dominated by anti-Muslim rants from Laz and Firestarter and I come back after a few days to discover that I was wrong, and this has somehow turned into a conspiraloon thread!! Why would Mi5 need to do this? What would they achieve? The only reasons they would do this are to get more funding or to get more of a free reign to do their job. Following 9/11 and the July 7th bombings in London, they pretty much were given all the funding they needed and new laws introduced to allow them to act more freely. There is nothing else for them to achieve that they don't have already so why they would set a bomb off in the most insignificant town in the country is beyond me...

And why the fuck would any Islamic terrorist want to set a bomb off in "the most insignificant town in the country" ? To "promote fear" ? You know that's pretty fucking retarded for an answer, and you also know most people are fucking retarded (when it comes to anything to do with politics or power structures)... so, the logic of "why" was in your initial post in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Sounds like a Islamic terrorist attack gone wrong (the only person injured was the bomber himself) Scary thing is that this guy is white, British born, but appears to have been brainwashed into converting to some warped version of Islam... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7417349.stm

With more rational peole like yourself, it's only going to propagate the fear of "Islamism" and with less rational people, which is a much larger group, it's going to go beyond that. And it adds to their paranoid perception of "radical Islam" having tentacles reaching all over society.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

@ PKC: I didn't claim to have any evidence to begin with, so your incoherent rant doesn't dignify a proper response. I gave you my reasons why, unlike yourself, I don't buy everything I read and for everything else I've said thus far.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

I think the most likely senerio here is that we have one unstable, depressed, confused, marginalized kid who was desperate to be part of something larger then himself... to have purpose. His mental instability allowed him to believe that blowing something up in the name of Allah would give his life purpose. He's neither an islamic terrorist or a government stooge... he's a psychologically damaged kid.

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Jesus Christ I post a thread that I think will become dominated by anti-Muslim rants from Laz and Firestarter and I come back after a few days to discover that I was wrong, and this has somehow turned into a conspiraloon thread!!

Thanks to all the anti-conspiraloons like yourself and others. All I did was make a single statement and everybody jumped on it. You can't really blame me for that, blame your insecure anti-conspiraloon friends who can't tolerate skepticism.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I think the most likely senerio here is that we have one unstable, depressed, confused, marginalized kid who was desperate to be part of something larger then himself... to have purpose. His mental instability allowed him to believe that blowing something up in the name of Allah would give his life purpose. He's neither an islamic terrorist or a government stooge... he's a psychologically damaged kid.

Yeah, that's possible too. Although it would depend on the disorder as most nuerological disorders don't drive people to do anything that extreme (not to mention bombing requires at least research on explosives, a little to much effort and probably too complicated for someone with a nuerological disorder)... and if he did have some kind of nuerological disorder, I think the likelyhood of "belonging" for a sense of purpose is low to non-existant.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i know some people hate to realise it, but islamic extremists generate enough fear and distrust of muslims all by themselves.

Bullshit, much of the Middle East and South Asia has been subjected to it for a while. I don't see a Muslim phobia rampant over there. And most people with any fucking brains there also know that much of it is Western sponsored and created.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller