The best thing to do would probably be to increase the fines -- make them more of a deterrent than they currently are.

Another way to tackle this would be to make a uniform fine for each unit of pollution that a company produces. That way, the bigger a company gets, the bigger incentive it has to clean up its production.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles The best thing to do would probably be to increase the fines -- make them more of a deterrent than they currently are.

Well, if they just eliminated the carbon credit program completely, we wouldn't have to worry. The fines are exorbitant. Hence the carbon credit program exists. Although I know this is a rather "extreme" thought from the manufacturing industry's view, it is the only way that we can actually get them to do something about it. Otherwise, they won't care, and just continue to hobble along with as many carbon credits as possible.

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Originally posted by bas Dual exhaust tips on dual exhaust = QUAD EXHAUST = 300 gain in horsepower. Duh

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Originally posted by bas Undies with a dickhole aren't good for guys. Your balls can get caught in them. That's why I prefer to go over the gate instead of through the fence.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Another way to tackle this would be to make a uniform fine for each unit of pollution that a company produces. That way, the bigger a company gets, the bigger incentive it has to clean up its production.

I agree with this view. A quickly sliding scale, that is indiscriminate on what industry you are in. A pollution is pollution stance.

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Originally posted by bas Dual exhaust tips on dual exhaust = QUAD EXHAUST = 300 gain in horsepower. Duh

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Originally posted by bas Undies with a dickhole aren't good for guys. Your balls can get caught in them. That's why I prefer to go over the gate instead of through the fence.

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel Of having any sort of cap on GHG emissions if you have a carbon credit program that allows you, as a company, to sell your credits to other companies? I am all for implementing caps, but there are far too many companies that have very little emissions, and have excess credits they sell to companies that gobble up credits from a mass of companies. I really see no benefit. Discuss.

A lot of people come up with this as the first argument against cap and trade. But it's because they dont know the whole picture.

The idea is to cap carbon emissions at something less than what it is today. The program would then distribute carbon "credits" to business, but they arent going to distribute more credits than the cap allows. So, right off the bat, we've reduced emissions. Then, over time, the program would slowly decrease the amount of carbon, ie. the cap gets smaller and smaller.

It's totally fine that some companies emit nothing, or very little. Yes, they can sell those credits to Southern Company or whoever else needs them. The point is the cap, and where the cap is set.

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Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie A lot of people come up with this as the first argument against cap and trade. But it's because they dont know the whole picture. The idea is to cap carbon emissions at something less than what it is today. The program would then distribute carbon "credits" to business, but they arent going to distribute more credits than the cap allows. So, right off the bat, we've reduced emissions. Then, over time, the program would slowly decrease the amount of carbon, ie. the cap gets smaller and smaller. It's totally fine that some companies emit nothing, or very little. Yes, they can sell those credits to Southern Company or whoever else needs them. The point is the cap, and where the cap is set.

So really, it is just a reform to the current program as it exists today. I guess I can see the benefit in that, as long as they set the cap at a realistically achievable number that is still a significant drop in emissions. I just don't see it having any effect in the immediate future. Too many companies that have little to no emissions with a lot of carbon credits to sell. Maybe once the cap gets smaller for either the 1st or 2nd time after the initial change, we will, but that is years, if not decades, away.

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Originally posted by bas Dual exhaust tips on dual exhaust = QUAD EXHAUST = 300 gain in horsepower. Duh

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Originally posted by bas Undies with a dickhole aren't good for guys. Your balls can get caught in them. That's why I prefer to go over the gate instead of through the fence.

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel I just don't see it having any effect in the immediate future. Too many companies that have little to no emissions with a lot of carbon credits to sell.

I still dont understand why you say there's little to no effect immediately. If youre talking about carbon, yes, there is an immediate effect.

The current US emission rate is 6 billion metric tons of CO2 per year. Say, for instance, that the cap and trade policy STARTS in 2009 and implements a reduction of 1 billion metric tons, and each credit is for 1 metric ton. Thats a 5 billion metric ton limit, and they arent going to sell any more credits than 5 billion. So, we are going to immediately reduce the amount of carbon that we emit. And then, every 5 years or so, they decrease the cap.

Something is worked out to determine how many credits each carbon-emitting company gets. And the starting standard is set at YOUR COMPANY'S 2009 emission levels (so, if you're a non-carbon emitting business in 2009, its not like you can get credits to sell -- youre not part of the market at that point).

Now that everyone has their carbon credits, you can either choose to use them or sell them. If you can somehow manage to reduce your carbon emissions from your 2009 level, you can sell them. Reward. If you cant, then you have to use them. If you increase your carbon emissions, youre going to have to buy. Punishment.

Its a reward and punishment kind of program.

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Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie I still dont understand why you say there's little to no effect immediately. If youre talking about carbon, yes, there is an immediate effect. The current US emission rate is 6 billion metric tons of CO2 per year. Say, for instance, that the cap and trade policy STARTS in 2009 and implements a reduction of 1 billion metric tons, and each credit is for 1 metric ton. Thats a 5 billion metric ton limit, and they arent going to sell any more credits than 5 billion. So, we are going to immediately reduce the amount of carbon that we emit. And then, every 5 years or so, they decrease the cap. Something is worked out to determine how many credits each carbon-emitting company gets. And the starting standard is set at YOUR COMPANY'S 2009 emission levels (so, if you're a non-carbon emitting business in 2009, its not like you can get credits to sell -- youre not part of the market at that point). Now that everyone has their carbon credits, you can either choose to use them or sell them. If you can somehow manage to reduce your carbon emissions from your 2009 level, you can sell them. Reward. If you cant, then you have to use them. If you increase your carbon emissions, youre going to have to buy. Punishment. Its a reward and punishment kind of program.

Well I am not as versed as you and concede that while I thought that the non-carbon emitting companies were part of the market, knowing now that they are not does help a ton. And the fact that the cap is based on each companies carbon production of the prior year, and does not fluctuate, nor increase, I do see where it will have an immediate impact.

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Originally posted by bas Dual exhaust tips on dual exhaust = QUAD EXHAUST = 300 gain in horsepower. Duh

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Originally posted by bas Undies with a dickhole aren't good for guys. Your balls can get caught in them. That's why I prefer to go over the gate instead of through the fence.

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel Well I am not as versed as you and concede that while I thought that the non-carbon emitting companies were part of the market, knowing now that they are not does help a ton. And the fact that the cap is based on each companies carbon production of the prior year, and does not fluctuate, nor increase, I do see where it will have an immediate impact.

Yeah. This is why the cap and trade programs in Europe are so successful, and why I honestly think they will be successful here. Setting up a market for carbon not only gets our emissions on track, but it spurs growth and new technology, and more investment in science.

It's good by me.

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I'm selling some carbon credits right now. PM me for details. Also, I won several international lotteries today.

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Originally posted by jennypie U.S. money smells like vomit.

Yeah, but its cheap!