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Originally posted by Magnetonium Lebezniatnikov, there's absolutely no way I can read all that. Its too big. At least bold the key statements ... I am too tired to concentrate on some book-reading right now

Pick it up from the library then. Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal: For Preventing the Children of Poor People in Ireland from Being a Burden to Their Parents or Country, and for Making Them Beneficial to the Publick" - written in 1729.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Correction, it has never been EQUAL. If equality of outcome is your definition of fairness, then you are correct. Everyone in the world won't be millionaires ... I'm not going to argue with you here. Obviously someone born in a war-ravaged part of Africa is going to have a much tougher time escaping poverty than someone born in the USA or another developed country. Nobody will dispute that.. But as I said, you can't blame any one group (the rich in this case) for the plight of the poor.. There are countless factors involved in the wealth/skill gap, many of them political. I'm trying to make the point that there is no one "system" holding people down...the rich are not oppressing the people with an iron boot to keep people where they are. The fact is there are billions of competing interests in the world trying to make their way through a chaotic system with an uneven playing field. Even if we had a perfectly peaceful planet with a level playing field and free markets everywhere, we would still going to have VAST inequality because human beings are vastly unequal in many ways. They have unequal talents, unequals ambition, unequal social connections, etc. Inequality is a fact of life for humanity...and the only politicians can think to fight it is by using government power to create an unequal playing field...giving those at the back of the race baseball bats so they can break the knees of those in front. You'll have greater equality with policies like this, but it is certainly UNfair in my view.

Those are just pretty words, yes it does sound great and just, but its not right. Its a flawed system. Because some human qualities and characteristics like stewardship are not going to be rewarded as a job of a military contractor. Making guns that kill people will make you more successful in life than stewardship. And thats just one example of many, you can think of other better ones. Farmers and nurses getting paid fractions of what make sports players, TV personas, weapons designers, etc.


Some people dont enjoy this complicated system. They just want to live in peace, away from problems, checkpoints and restrictions that this system places. They dont enjoy doing repetitive daily duties and unrewarding tasks. But everything is owned and controlled. They cant escape it. So people have no choice but to follow the rules, work their whole lives and have no choice but to stare at TV even succumb to alcohol, ignorance, poverty, and so on, losing faith and having little time for things that matter. And even at times they have to push aside their beliefs, interests and happiness in order to work hard and accomodate the system. This society was designed to accomodate those people who are contributing to the system in the most effective way. Coompetition is fierce. For example, protecting the forest from loggers is not a viable option, and cutting it down is better economically and financially. You might have ten bright minds but only one will end up running the company and get the biggest paycheque.

Look at an average large company. There has to be some people making low(er) wages in order for the ones at the top of the ladder to make their big paycheques.

This society and the system is in terrible shape. Its a linear system, where people do get wasted. We are losing our human face, eroding our culture, things than make us human. Just look around and think about it. The planet is in terrible shape, and what we are doing is very unnatural, against the laws of nature. Our creations are having a terrible effect on people and the environment. We are not happier. If things were great, there wouldn't be so many problems and so many people who are heavily on drugs, alcohol, television, cigarettes and other addictions.


People say "Hi, how are you today" followed by "Thats good" and they dont even really mean it. Or saying "I'm sorry to hear that" just because out of necessity. Companies implementing worker appreciation signs and notices while really its just a smokescreen, a corporate strategy.

And so on. Very little leisure time. And even if you dont owe anything you still have to pay taxes, rent or other bills - plugged in.

And there are many other countless problems - like intentional poisoning of people via terrible ingredients, carcinogens, pharmaceutical drugs, genetically modified foods and animals/plants, and so many people get hurt, maimed or injured by our inventions and ideas.

Killing one person is murder. But killing 500,000 is something forgotten along the lines of foreign policy. How many times do companies make a product that hurts, maims or kills many people? But its not treated as murder. Ooops!

The planet is getting decimated by consumerism, greed, gluttony, and environmental neglect.

EDIT: These are just some of my random ramblings. I am sure you get the picture and many other examples than someone else can provide.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Last edited by Magnetonium on Jul-11-2008 at 01:49

This doesnt just apply to Canadians. Its the entire world in general. How much greenhouse gases and waste do poor Africans generate as compared to a European or a North American?

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=611028

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Rich Have Biggest Impact On Environment Canwest News Service Published: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 Wealthy Canadians create a global warming impact 66% greater than the average household, according to a new study by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. The study showed that the richest 10% of Canadians create an environmental footprint that's 2.5 times the size of those created by the lowest 10% on an income scale. The highest 10% has an environmental impact that's one third larger than the next lower 10%, said Hugh Mackenzie, a research associate for the Ottawa-based think-tank and co-author of the study. The top 10% own homes that are larger, cost more to build and to heat, and they are more likely to own more than one vehicle and travel more frequently by air, he said.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Believe it or not mag, I agree with all of your sentiments two posts up

except this: "This society was designed to accomodate those people who are contributing to the system in the most effective way."

This is what you don't recognize.. Society was not "designed" this way. It is simply the natural order of things. Those who contribute the most and satisfy public demand best tend to get rewarded the most. Those with high skill sets and good decision making abilities (CEO's) will always make more than the less skilled workers on the bottom. It's not because the system is trying to "keep the poor man down". It's a simple function of supply and demand. I believe that teaching is much more important than pro-sports, but what I think is irrelevant. There is a large audience for sports worldwide, and the number of people who can compete with Kobe Bryant is FAR LESS than the number of people who can teach English.

Millions of teachers worldwide = lower paychecks
A few hundred professional athletes worldwide = higher paychecks

It may not be fair in the cosmic sense of things..but you need to accept that in a free society there will always be inequality of outcome because skills and ambitions are not equally distributed.

Lots of great points you raised. I have to add, that I believe sometime in the future our system and society will collapse ... maybe not on a planetary scale - it might continue to exist in certain places.

You might call me crazy, but there's been many ficticious references to Atlantis and how their great civilization perished from greed, horrific deeds and stupidity. It doesnt have to be real (the existence of Atlantis, that is), its a metaphorical message to warn us humans of potential backlash in the future.

If there were past cultures and civilizations, they were never as widespread and massive as ours. Not necessarily as "advanced" as other possible ones though. Evidence of our existence will be hard to bury in a massive volcanic eruption or other natural disaster.

We as humans have to start looking ahead and think about the consequences of not just our individual actions, but into the bigger picture, into the future, for our children's children.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Capitalizt but you need to accept that in a free society there will always be inequality of outcome because skills and ambitions are not equally distributed.

which is pretty much all that can be said. as much as some of us might rail against liberal democratic capitalism, it still provides more social mobility and political & economic freedoms than anything else that has been tried.

the far left will always be maligned by the fact that they dont present any realistic alternatives to the status quo.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN which is pretty much all that can be said. as much as some of us might rail against liberal democratic capitalism, it still provides more social mobility and political & economic freedoms than anything else that has been tried. the far left will always be maligned by the fact that they dont present any realistic alternatives to the status quo.

The current liberal system has resulted in many individual innovations and developments to our technology and culture, lifestyles, but there are some things that have been overlooked. The system is not perfect, but it shoudn't be abandoned altogether for other present or past models, most of which are harsh, backward and repressive, and some will not work because of human nature. But this is a system in crisis, and if things arent addressed in the near future, it will not last. There are some serious flaws, thats all.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Magnetonium But this is a system in crisis, and if things arent addressed in the near future, it will not last.

people have been saying that since (at least) marx

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN people have been saying that since (at least) marx

People say at a lot of things all the time. Everything has been covered that can be covered, all perspectives, by some person somewhere sometime.

Yes, we have had problems for many generations. but today we are facing a new biig problem with ecological degredation around the planet. That alone is a very serious issue. And back during the days of Marx there wasnt 6.5+ billion people, or was there? Along other things ...

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture