quote:

Originally posted by Jake Benson If enough people use the word for a different meaning, then that meaning changes to fit what the majority think it means. Words aren't absolute facts of science that are meant to stay rigid. People made them up, and people commonly change the meaning words all the time. Truth is irony has different meanings, and dictionaries today reflect that. To suggest that the "true" or "original" definition of the word irony should be used is like convincing everyone that horse carriages are the best means of transportation.

You make some pretty good points but if we go on thinking like this, how many words will loose their essence ? irony should not be approached as a volatile term, in my opinion, people should study and practice the appropiate use.

If we go on thinking every word means something else to different people, then most words will loose significance. In the literary world (the world of letters and writing) this is terrible, because some words are worlds of their own and have a meaning (a pre-established meaning).

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"I think the scientific and the artistic spirit have something in common. The scientist wants not only to learn the facts, but to understand how they cohere, fit together and make a whole. He even uses criteria such as beauty and symmetry to help decide which theory he wants.

The scientist cannot capture the whole cosmos in thought. In his mind he makes a kind of microcosm, which we see as an analogue of the cosmos. In this way we try to get a feeling for the whole. The artist, I suppose, gets a feeling for the whole some other way.”

David Bohm in “Art, Dialogue and the Implicate Order”, published in On Creativity RC (Routledge Classics)

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Originally posted by diggerz You make some pretty good points but if we go on thinking like this, how many words will loose their essence ?

What "essence?"

What meaning does a word have apart from what people agree that it means?

It's not like English was handed down from the heavens by God and only he gets to decide what the "real" meaning is.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles What "essence?" What meaning does a word have apart from what people agree that it means? It's not like English was handed down from the heavens by God and only he gets to decide what the "real" meaning is.

education in america is going down the toilet.

i rest my case.

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"I think the scientific and the artistic spirit have something in common. The scientist wants not only to learn the facts, but to understand how they cohere, fit together and make a whole. He even uses criteria such as beauty and symmetry to help decide which theory he wants.

The scientist cannot capture the whole cosmos in thought. In his mind he makes a kind of microcosm, which we see as an analogue of the cosmos. In this way we try to get a feeling for the whole. The artist, I suppose, gets a feeling for the whole some other way.”

David Bohm in “Art, Dialogue and the Implicate Order”, published in On Creativity RC (Routledge Classics)

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz education in america is going down the toilet. i rest my case.

What does that have to do with anything?

Do you think that only people who believe in the "essences" of words can get or give a proper education?

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quote:

Originally posted by Frenchie My pussy is cold, please light my fire.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles What does that have to do with anything? Do you think that only people who believe in the "essences" of words can get or give a proper education?

the i know it all attitude, the getting a degree to earn more money (instead of acquiring knowledge), the only ivy-league schools are worth a shot and i need a student loan for that (credit crisis).

Let's just say that you don't know much about the English language if you can't be bothered to study the roots .

Wow, what would shakespeare say? Just think about that.

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"I think the scientific and the artistic spirit have something in common. The scientist wants not only to learn the facts, but to understand how they cohere, fit together and make a whole. He even uses criteria such as beauty and symmetry to help decide which theory he wants.

The scientist cannot capture the whole cosmos in thought. In his mind he makes a kind of microcosm, which we see as an analogue of the cosmos. In this way we try to get a feeling for the whole. The artist, I suppose, gets a feeling for the whole some other way.”

David Bohm in “Art, Dialogue and the Implicate Order”, published in On Creativity RC (Routledge Classics)

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz Wow, what would shakespeare say? Just think about that.

Wasn't he notorious for butchering/reassigning the meanings of words?

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What?

yes.

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"I think the scientific and the artistic spirit have something in common. The scientist wants not only to learn the facts, but to understand how they cohere, fit together and make a whole. He even uses criteria such as beauty and symmetry to help decide which theory he wants.

The scientist cannot capture the whole cosmos in thought. In his mind he makes a kind of microcosm, which we see as an analogue of the cosmos. In this way we try to get a feeling for the whole. The artist, I suppose, gets a feeling for the whole some other way.”

David Bohm in “Art, Dialogue and the Implicate Order”, published in On Creativity RC (Routledge Classics)

Although there has to be something said for the difference between a skilled user of the language manipulating it for literary purposes and someone who simply never learned the rules in the first place.

Kind of the difference between a composer using dissonance for emotional effect and a toddler banging at random on a piano.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Although there has to be something said for the difference between a skilled user of the language manipulating it for literary purposes and someone who simply never learned the rules in the first place.

Well, that's exactly my point. People have shun off proper English due to mere ignorance or a lack of education. Yes, the language changes according to culture/ethnicity/etc but rules of use were established for a reason.

Besides, it's always nice to know more about one's own language and what not. It seems to me that you are defending the latter, the uneducated, the common people, am i right? is my assertion correct?

you're justifying their ignorance by claiming that irony has different meanings for different people.

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"I think the scientific and the artistic spirit have something in common. The scientist wants not only to learn the facts, but to understand how they cohere, fit together and make a whole. He even uses criteria such as beauty and symmetry to help decide which theory he wants.

The scientist cannot capture the whole cosmos in thought. In his mind he makes a kind of microcosm, which we see as an analogue of the cosmos. In this way we try to get a feeling for the whole. The artist, I suppose, gets a feeling for the whole some other way.”

David Bohm in “Art, Dialogue and the Implicate Order”, published in On Creativity RC (Routledge Classics)

repost

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www.misterfalconmusic.com

How ironic.