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Originally posted by George Smiley Pressure from everyone that wants them to disband, from America, EU and UN, to domestic pressures in Lebanon

what the world wants and what Hezbollah wants are two TOTALLY different things aren't they?

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It might not change, but it would take away that excuse wouldn't it?

i'm naive?

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Thousands!? Come on now, did you just make that figure up?!

oh my bad i got Hezbollah mixed up with that other terrorist orginization funded, trained and equiped by Iran that fires rockets. Hamas.

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Originally posted by Q5echo what the world wants and what Hezbollah wants are two TOTALLY different things aren't they?

Hizballah wasn't born out of the desire to see the destruction of Israel, like the Palestinian groups. They were born out of the Israeli occupation of Lebanon. Altho Hizballah support the Palestinians goals, you can't lump them together in the same category. If Israel were out of Lebanon, there'd be no point for their existence. The fact is, people from all the different groups in Lebanon see Hizballah as a viable defence against Israel - look at the war in 2006. Israel targeted Lebanon.

I assume that you are under the impression that Hizballah will not stop attacking Israel until they are "destroyed", similar to Hamas' goals. However, since 2000, Hizballah activities against Israel have been very limited. You said that "thousands" of rockets rain down on Israel before and after the war. Altho you say you confused it with Hamas, I still get the impression you believe Israel is under constant attack from Hizballah. I think from 2000 - 2006 there were less than 10 rocket attacks, and I'm not even aware of any since 2006. During the war, of course, Hizballah fired nearly 4,000 rockets in the 35 days...but then Israel had levelled Beirut.

I think you do have to separate Hizballah and Hamas because they were formed for very different reasons under separate circumstances and have different stated goals. While it might be perfectly reasonable to suggest Hizballah would continue in their aggressive policy towards Israel should they withdraw from Shebaa Farms, they'd have a hard time garnering any support from those who traditionally sympathise with their aims when, after all, they would have achieved those aims

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Originally posted by George Smiley Hizballah wasn't born out of the desire to see the destruction of Israel

i honestly made the mistake of confusing the two. i'm aware of the differences.

however, i think its fairly irrelevant today what they were born out of. what they are to Israel today and what they are to Lebanon today has little to do what they are "born out of".

you can't sit here today and tell me after the UN mandated withdrawl of Lebanon that Shebaa Farms is some sort of lynchpin to the stability of relations to the Lebanese Government and the Israeli government and the disarming of Hezbollah.

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Originally posted by Q5echo i honestly made the mistake of confusing the two. i'm aware of the differences. however, i think its fairly irrelevant today what they were born out of. what they are to Israel today and what they are to Lebanon today has little to do what they are "born out of".

I know you honestly confused the two, I just suspect you link them more than I think is helpful to understanding this conflict

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you can't sit here today and tell me after the UN mandated withdrawl of Lebanon that Shebaa Farms is some sort of lynchpin to the stability of relations to the Lebanese Government and the Israeli government and the disarming of Hezbollah.

Shebaa Farms is exactly how you described it earlier - an excuse - it's an excuse for Hizballah, Syria and Iran. It gives legitimacy to their opposition to Israel. I don't think it's necessarily that symbolic or important a region, but it's the only thing that allows these groups to maintain their position. Hizballah has an excuse not to disarm, I say take that excuse away and see what pans out.

I also note you've yet to offer any solutions to the problem...

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Originally posted by George Smiley While it might be perfectly reasonable to suggest Hizballah would continue in their aggressive policy towards Israel should they withdraw from Shebaa Farms, they'd have a hard time garnering any support from those who traditionally sympathise with their aims when, after all, they would have achieved those aims

That argument became so lame ages ago. It just naively fails to recognize the very nature of Islamist terror groups as opposed to any other terrorist organizations in the past anywhere else in the world. The pattern of such groups is identical, the lessons learned similar, and yet apparently something surprinsgly stubborn in the average "Western" mind, let's call it the gullible notion that at the end of the days we are all rationally thinking human beings (aka "humanism"), will twist and turn everything in order to maintain the hope for a peaceful resolution.
Al-Quaida, Hamas, Hizballah, the Iranian mullahs all act the same: They mix their proclamation that Israels needs to vanish from the face (A) of the earth with a list of "realistic" polticals claims (B). That's when many people make the big mistake of "logically" combining these two positions in the following way: "If B becomes irrelevant, then A automatically ceases to exist".

Well, that's the thing, though: WRONG.

The hatred and desire to annihilate the Jewish state is NOT linked with these claims. It's a relgious conviction, not a stance open for negotiation. Listen closely to the speeches of various leaders. Never do they even hint at giving up this belief, no matter what Israel will do. Contrary to IRA/ETA/ you name them, their existence is based on an *ideology*, they do not present an assembley of people with similar poltical goals. They are cults. These cults are feeded on recognition, fame driven by "successful operations" which are measured by how much they destroyed, not how much they actually gained.

Israel made the mistake of trying to comfort them, thinking that responding to these claims will eventually weaked their hatred. The opposite occured again and again (I'm not gonna list everything here, just think of 2000 and 2005, unilateral withdraws on the one hand and an escalation of violence on the other hand...or basically the entire Oslo process in retrospective). Why is it so hard to believe somebody wnats you to die, just bceause you happen to be "you", and he happens to be "him"? Because, whether you like it or not, that's the case here.

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

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Originally posted by TranceGiant That argument became so lame ages ago. It just naively fails to recognize the very nature of Islamist terror groups as opposed to any other terrorist organizations in the past anywhere else in the world. The pattern of such groups is identical, the lessons learned similar, and yet apparently something surprinsgly stubborn in the average "Western" mind, let's call it the gullible notion that at the end of the days we are all rationally thinking human beings (aka "humanism"), will twist and turn everything in order to maintain the hope for a peaceful resolution. Al-Quaida, Hamas, Hizballah, the Iranian mullahs all act the same: They mix their proclamation that Israels needs to vanish from the face (A) of the earth with a list of "realistic" polticals claims (B). That's when many people make the big mistake of "logically" combining these two positions in the following way: "If B becomes irrelevant, then A automatically ceases to exist". Well, that's the thing, though: WRONG. The hatred and desire to annihilate the Jewish state is NOT linked with these claims. It's a relgious conviction, not a stance open for negotiation. Listen closely to the speeches of various leaders. Never do they even hint at giving up this belief, no matter what Israel will do. Contrary to IRA/ETA/ you name them, their existence is based on an *ideology*, they do not present an assembley of people with similar poltical goals. They are cults. These cults are feeded on recognition, fame driven by "successful operations" which are measured by how much they destroyed, not how much they actually gained. Israel made the mistake of trying to comfort them, thinking that responding to these claims will eventually weaked their hatred. The opposite occured again and again (I'm not gonna list everything here, just think of 2000 and 2005, unilateral withdraws on the one hand and an escalation of violence on the other hand...or basically the entire Oslo process in retrospective). Why is it so hard to believe somebody wnats you to die, just bceause you happen to be "you", and he happens to be "him"? Because, whether you like it or not, that's the case here.

How does that help anything?

You basically parrot the Israeli line, who are themselves dictated to by religious fundamentalists in the settlements

Neither you or Q5echo are capable of trying to understand how this conflict might be resolved. All you care about is the continuation of Israeli aggression and revenge. You make excuses for exactly the same things Hamas/Hizballah do, but you like it when Israel kills cos they're "your side" liek it's some kind of football match

What is your solution to the problem? If you have none, your opinons are pretty worthless...

You didn't address my main point to the slightest. It's not my fault that my perception of reality does not "encourage" a peaceful solution, I wish things were different, but you can't choose, can you. I'm certainly not going to close one eye or hear things differently or forget history just to adjust to an allegedly diplomatic approach. It's not my opniion, it's what I firmly believe to be the case, what can I do about that.

And stop effusing the cliche of Israeli "fundamentalism". Settlers are a tiny minority in population and political influence. Comparing their "power" with the status of religious extremism on the Arab side is deliberate falsification of facts. Three years ago the overwhelming Israeli mainstream was able to effectively take away their homes in the Gaza strip - against their strong will. It was yet another attempt for "land for peace". Yet another failure.

Sometimes there are no solutions. At least nothing short-term. Simple as that.

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

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Originally posted by George Smiley I know you honestly confused the two, I just suspect you link them more than I think is helpful to understanding this conflict

so english. can make elitism sound so polite

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Originally posted by TranceGiant You didn't address my main point to the slightest. It's not my fault that my perception of reality does not "encourage" a peaceful solution, I wish things were different, but you can't choose, can you. I'm certainly not going to close one eye or hear things differently or forget history just to adjust to an allegedly diplomatic approach. It's not my opniion, it's what I firmly believe to be the case, what can I do about that. And stop effusing the cliche of Israeli "fundamentalism". Settlers are a tiny minority in population and political influence. Comparing their "power" with the status of religious extremism on the Arab side is deliberate falsification of facts. Three years ago the overwhelming Israeli mainstream was able to effectively take away their homes in the Gaza strip - against their strong will. It was yet another attempt for "land for peace". Yet another failure. Sometimes there are no solutions. At least nothing short-term. Simple as that.

You only refuse to believe there are no solutions so you can support Israeli policy...

got me there, damn

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

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Originally posted by TranceGiant You didn't address my main point to the slightest. It's not my fault that my perception of reality does not "encourage" a peaceful solution, I wish things were different, but you can't choose, can you. I'm certainly not going to close one eye or hear things differently or forget history just to adjust to an allegedly diplomatic approach. It's not my opniion, it's what I firmly believe to be the case, what can I do about that.

That is your opinion dude, it works the same for everybody. What you can do about that, personally yourself, is think of human beings as human beings as opposed to categorical manifestations of various religious / areligious, ethnic, and cultural groupings.

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Originally posted by TranceGiant And stop effusing the cliche of Israeli "fundamentalism". Settlers are a tiny minority in population and political influence. Comparing their "power" with the status of religious extremism on the Arab side is deliberate falsification of facts. Three years ago the overwhelming Israeli mainstream was able to effectively take away their homes in the Gaza strip - against their strong will. It was yet another attempt for "land for peace". Yet another failure.

And what makes you think 'religious' extremists are the norm in the Arab world, or Palestinians in particular?

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Originally posted by TranceGiant Sometimes there are no solutions. At least nothing short-term. Simple as that.

A man I'm sure you detest had a similar view of a group closer to 'home'. That always works out so well doesn't it? The consequences don't need to be rehashed.

Peace.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z And what makes you think 'religious' extremists are the norm in the Arab world, or Palestinians in particular?

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Deviant Ikwanis from the a Palestinian Group Called Hamas teaching children to go and kill yourself which is Forbidden in Islam Instead of Teaching these children about Islam and Tawheed and teaching them the sunnah of RasoulAllah they teach them how to carry a gun. This Group called "Hamas" is a organization which was founded by the Ikwanul Muslimeen which were Group from Egypt and their Most famous Leader is Sayyid Qutb, Qardawi etc. This group is also the head of a country called Sudan in Africa. The Ikwanul Muslimeen are basically a deviant sect of Islam much like the shia they deny that ALlah is above the throne they have the Ashari creed. They also believe that Allah created the Qur'an instead of revealed the Quran, and this statement is Kuffr since the Speech of Allah is not created it's always there Just like how the Power of Allah and the Knowledge of ALlah is always part of Allah and not created. These attributes are always part of Allah and it is from among Allahs names and attribues asma wa sifat, one of the categories of Tawheed. This group called the Ikwanul Muslimeen also believe Music is Halal, and they also have many connections with the Shia Pagan religion and Iran, they allow for the free propagation of the Shia religion in Al Azhar for example and in Sudan and also in Palestine. This group like many of the supporters of this deviant group Like Hamas want to destroy Islam and should be avoided I made this video not to talk down on Palestinians but to warn them that this group is not an Islamic group and has noting to do with Islam, This group is not surving Muslims or Islam but rather want to destroy us Muslims by saying things like Suicide is Halal we should beware of these people including bin laden and other Khwarijeeis who want to destroy our deen. we should try our Best to follow Islam and the sunnah according to how the Salaf practised Islam and not add or delete things from it. We should embrace Salafiyaah insha'Allah and follow Islam how the Salaf practised Islam and not how these village idiots running around do! ---Quran 4:29 O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you. ---Hadith Qudsi 28: On the authority of Jundub ibn Abdullah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: There was amongst those before you a man who had a wound. He was in [such] anguish that he took a knife and made with it a cut in his hand, and the blood did not cease to flow till he died. Allah the Almighty said: My servant has himself forestalled Me; I have forbidden him Paradise. It was related by al-Bukhari. ---Sahih Muslim Book 035, Number 6480: Anas (b. Malik) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying. None of you should make a request for death because of the trouble in which he is involved, but if there is no other help to it, then say: O Allah, keep me alive as long as there is goodness in life for me and bring death to me when there is goodness in death for me. -----Sahih Muslim Book 035, Number 6485: Hammam b. Munabbih said: Abu Huraira narrated to us ahadith from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and out of these one is that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: None amongst you should make a request for death, and do not call for it before it comes, for when any one of you dies, he ceases (to do good) deeds and the life of a believer is not prolonged but for goodness. -----Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 71, Number 670: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever." ----Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 445: Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak: The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "Whoever intentionally swears falsely by a religion other than Islam, then he is what he has said, (e.g. if he says, 'If such thing is not true then I am a Jew,' he is really a Jew). And whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire." Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, "A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him."