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Originally posted by josh4 Personally, I'd make everyone who ever voted for Bush serve in Iraq. That'd solve a lot of problems.

You can bet, that if there was a draft, like there was during the Vietnam War, we'de be having another Summer of Love 67'!!

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Originally posted by josh4 So the surge has produced some results but whos to say how long it will last.

thats the whole reasoning behind our insisting we get it done and get it done in a way consistent with universal ideals of self preserving Democracies. if it is not done that way, or if for some reason we abandon those ideals and not defend them effectively, then there will be plenty of blame to go around.

you should know as well as i do the current administration will never go down that latter path. not in 8 months. not in 16 months. not in a 100 years. can you be so sure your boy's administration would do the same?

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Originally posted by Q5echo thats the whole reasoning behind our insisting we get it done and get it done in a way consistent with universal ideals of self preserving Democracies. if it is not done that way, or if for some reason we abandon those ideals and not defend them effectively, then there will be plenty of blame to go around. you should know as well as i do the current administration will never go down that latter path. not in 8 months. not in 16 months. not in a 100 years. can you be so sure your boy's administration would do the same?

I'm not one to advocate a cut and run. This has gone on long enough though. The Iraqi's are assuming control and its time to go. There are enough problems to deal with at home right now. The country doesn't have the time or resources to be distracted by a protracted war. If things are going well then its the perfect environment to start talking a transition of power to the Iraqis and our exit. I have no desire to sacrifice our own self-preservation as a country to ensure the establishment of a radical Islamic democracy. Curious what you will do if all your universal ideals are realized only to see the middle east democratically elect the bad guys. What would our boys' blood have been spilled over then?

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Originally posted by josh4 I'm not one to advocate a cut and run. This has gone on long enough though. The Iraqi's are assuming control and its time to go. There are enough problems to deal with at home right now. The country doesn't have the time or resources to be distracted by a protracted war. If things are going well then its the perfect environment to start talking a transition of power to the Iraqis and our exit. I have no desire to sacrifice our own self-preservation as a country to ensure the establishment of a radical Islamic democracy. Curious what you will do if all your universal ideals are realized only to see the middle east democratically elect the bad guys. What would our boys' blood have been spilled over then?

There is no such thing as an Arab Jeffersonian democracy in the Middle East.

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Originally posted by josh4 If things are going well then its the perfect environment to start talking a transition of power to the Iraqis and our exit.

100% agree. and i promise you thats been happening from the very day the new Iraqi Parliament conveened three years ago. however, you do not do it publicly. and i think whats most important here, you do not do it publicly out of PERSONAL POLITICAL FURTHERIZATION.

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Curious what you will do if all your universal ideals are realized only to see the middle east democratically elect the bad guys. What would our boys' blood have been spilled over then?

could that happen? sure. in the ME, anything is possible politically. again i stress the importance of finishing things right based on conditions on the ground.

thats why you pursue multi-pronged efforts in engaging the threats that exist today that may exacerbate conditions in the future like Iranian hegemony, like the immoral logic of Jihadism and extremism.

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Originally posted by Krypton There is no such thing as an Arab Jeffersonian democracy in the Middle East.

but there are such things as Parliamentary Democracies.

btw Jefferson believed it was the duty of Americans to spread the "Empire of Liberty" to the world.

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Originally posted by josh4 Curious what you will do if all your universal ideals are realized only to see the middle east democratically elect the bad guys. What would our boys' blood have been spilled over then?

Fuck...precisely.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Q5echo 100% agree. and i promise you thats been happening from the very day the new Iraqi Parliament conveened three years ago. however, you do not do it publicly. and i think whats most important here, you do not do it publicly out of PERSONAL POLITICAL FURTHERIZATION. could that happen? sure. in the ME, anything is possible politically. again i stress the importance of finishing things right based on conditions on the ground. thats why you pursue multi-pronged efforts in engaging the threats that exist today that may exacerbate conditions in the future like Iranian hegemony, like the immoral logic of Jihadism and extremism.

So, forgetting the absurdity of a highly orchestrated super secret troop withdrawal over the past three years, lets see if we have this straight. While this is going on things at home fall apart economically, socially, and become increasingly polarized. The banks, foreclosures, jobs, illegal immigration, gas prices, health care, global warming, energy, 80 fucking percent of people say WRONG TRACK.

Nevertheless, we continue the war, for as long as it takes, we pump more money into Iraq when it could be used to great success in many other places. Supposing we can actually beat back the insurgency and al Qaeda, supposing we can actually setup a working democracy in the middle east, supposing the country will unite as one, supposing this new government embraces the ideals we uphold and doesn't become another radical government based on religion, supposing all that and afterward it lasts and there aren't any revolutions or anything to revert all the progress.

That's a lot to swallow, and on what, TRUST? To the same people that got us here in the first place. Well, good luck with that! Because its not me or people like me, its the American people, and personally, I seriously doubt they will take it.

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Originally posted by Q5echo but there are such things as Parliamentary Democracies. btw Jefferson believed it was the duty of Americans to spread the "Empire of Liberty" to the world.

I think neoconservatives take this way out of context. Looking at this quote..

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"We shall divert through our own Country a branch of commerce which the European States have thought worthy of the most important struggles and sacrifices, and in the event of peace on terms which have been contemplated by some powers we shall form to the American union a barrier against the dangerous extension of the British Province of Canada and add to the Empire of liberty an extensive and fertile Country thereby converting dangerous Enemies into valuable friends." (Jefferson to George Rogers Clark, December 25, 1780. Boyd, Julian P., ed. Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Volume 4, Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1951, p. 237-238.)

It is clear, Jefferson is talking about an "empire" of states, and converting dangerous enemies to valuable friends. Here's the context. All there was was the 13 colonies. East of the Appalacian Mountains were enemies..indians, english forts, spanish forts, etc. Clearly, they were the enemies he was referring to. Additionally, Canada was another enemy, because they were still under the authority of the British crown.

I'de also like to categorically state that Jefferson was the ultimate liberal. A revolutionary. The very anti-thesis of contemporary conservationism.

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Q, what would you do if Iraqi's elect an Islamic fundamentalist? Shut them off like when the Palestinians elected Hamas?

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Originally posted by Krypton Q, what would you do if Iraqi's elect an Islamic fundamentalist? Shut them off like when the Palestinians elected Hamas?

Now here's a loaded question...

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."