quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Yep, like I said, "I don't think morality lends itself so easily to the demands of logic". My argument is that if morality has any truth value at all, then it is primarily an empirical truth rather than a logical truth. To use an example, it can be empirically demonstrated that generally: 1) Murder causes suffering. And: 2) Suffering is something that people seek to avoid. We can syllogistically draw these premises together into the conclusion that "murder is therefore to be avoided", but the (logical) 'truth value' of this syllogism is still completely dependent on the (empirical) 'truth value' of the premises upon which it is founded. Fortunately the empirical truth of both these premises can be demonstrated, but otherwise you would be correct: in the absense of objective proof for human suffering, moral claims would have no "truth value logically at all..."

That's my point, those are not "objective" statements. "Empirical data" is meaningless if there is no standardized means of quantifying and evaluating it. Which is why you won't find me ripping on religion all the time for my own personal amusement, just because the vast majority of people are idiots and inevitably some arbitrary proportion of them will make it manifest as a reflection of their own neurosis by becoming fundamentalists. Good luck coming up with an "objective" standard for analyzing morals or ethics.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 i never understood why people ask questions that have no answers. society is better off when people utilize their efforts to tackle questions/problems with real answers/solutions.

couldn't agree more! which is why political science > philosophy

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN couldn't agree more! which is why political science > philosophy

Rationalist cop-out, just in your case specifically . What i find amazing about most rationalist is how incredibly irrational they are.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Rationalist cop-out, just in your case specifically . What i find amazing about most rationalist is how incredibly irrational they are.

'the philosophers have merely interpreted the world, the point is to change it' -karl marx.

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The day one of you hypocritical assholes can show me an objective basis for morality or ethics is when I'll take your tarring of everyone with a broad stroke seriously, or anything you say making any kind of value assumptions .

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

LOL. who's responsible for shaolin's grumpy medication? you've given him too much again!

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN LOL. who's responsible for shaolin's grumpy medication? you've given him too much again!

Hehe, I'm lacking my self medication right now and in a deep philosophical rage... pot . Ironic isn't it, that I lack this herbal necessity in this dire moment. Most philosophy majors and professors always seem to have a plentiful supply of acid or pot, also probably why they never get anything done other than thinking deep thoughts .

EDIT: I'm actually getting more frustrated by the crap I have to read for a philosophy class I'm taking. We seem to be polarized in to picking sides all the time. The irony is that both sides of the argument are making value assumptions and accusing each other of the same fallacies that they're both demonstrating .

EDIT2: Sidenote, I stopped taking my adderall specifically because it affected my neurotransmitters in such a way as to manifest itself by releasing much of my pent up rage in the form of massive amounts of aggression, oddly enough, usually directed at myself or inanimate objects. Animals are too cool to be unkind too and people are too stupid to be terribly different from animals .

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Sep-21-2008 at 23:45

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Hehe, I'm lacking my self medication right now and in a deep philosophical rage... pot . Ironic isn't it, that I lack this herbal necessity in this dire moment. Most philosophy majors and professors always seem to have a plentiful supply of acid or pot, also probably why they never get anything done other than thinking deep thoughts . EDIT: I'm actually getting more frustrated by the crap I have to read for a philosophy class I'm taking. We seem to be polarized in to picking sides all the time. The irony is that both sides of the argument are making value assumptions and accusing each other of the same fallacies that they're both demonstrating .

haha, that explains everything! i hate dry spells hehe.

re philosophy, i dropped it because though i valued the thought-processes that it endows students with, like jerz said above, the constant asking of questions that had no answers got to me eventually, so i figured polsci would be a more valuable environment for me

maybe you need to find another subject more suitable to your interests?

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN haha, that explains everything! i hate dry spells hehe. re philosophy, i dropped it because though i valued the thought-processes that it endows students with, like jerz said above, the constant asking of questions that had no answers got to me eventually, so i figured polsci would be a more valuable environment for me maybe you need to find another subject more suitable to your interests?

Hehe, I'm taking this class to teak a break from hard science only to find out the easy classes can be quite mentally taxing for a rational individual who is too used to hard science .

EDIT: My professor is a total stoner, and seems to be coming off an acid trip daily in class .

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Hehe, I'm lacking my self medication right now and in a deep philosophical rage... pot . Ironic isn't it, that I lack this herbal necessity in this dire moment. Most philosophy majors and professors always seem to have a plentiful supply of acid or pot, also probably why they never get anything done other than thinking deep thoughts . EDIT: I'm actually getting more frustrated by the crap I have to read for a philosophy class I'm taking. We seem to be polarized in to picking sides all the time. The irony is that both sides of the argument are making value assumptions and accusing each other of the same fallacies that they're both demonstrating . EDIT2: Sidenote, I stopped taking my adderall specifically because it affected my neurotransmitters in such a way as to manifest itself by releasing much of my pent up rage in the form of massive amounts of aggression, oddly enough, usually directed at myself or inanimate objects. Animals are too cool to be unkind too and people are too stupid to be terribly different from animals .

Yeah, you should definitely relax. Definitely hunt down some herb if that's what does the trick. I know it does for me, but I'm naturally fairly anxiety free, so I can't relate too much.

Then share it.

I was still serious about my challenge to the hardcore "rationalist." There is no "rational" basis for 'morality' or ethics. Value assumptions are still assumptions, all you need is one counter example, which Renegade already mentioned in his post, to disprove the validity "logically." It's their hypocrisy that pisses me off more than anything else. Ironically, the most rabid atheist are very much like the rabid religious fundamentalists. Both suffer from a neurosis and follow the same doctrine of intolerance. Changing cultural norms don't give any validity or lack of validity to any value system or values. So the moment they say a belief in God is irrational, after hijacking the term rational, which isn't limited to the narrowly defined parameters of rationalism which deals pretty much with only inductive reasoning, they can cram their secular values up their ass too. I wouldn't be saying any of this btw if it weren't for their generalizations about "religion" or all 'religious' people as being some sort of crazed lunatics. But it's culturally accepted, and I'm guessing always has been, to be intolerant of unpopular or non-mainstream views. I can't stand fundamentalists either, but I don't make degrading comments explicitly or implicitly about people just because they are "religious" or secular. Being religious or secular doesn't make you a good or bad person, neither does being in either category automatically exempt you from being an inconsiderate disrespectful asshole. Plus, it's not like secular system have resulted in any less bloodshed... I can't think of more warfare and famine in any other period. I'm referring to the post industrial age and colonial age. Plus, that's a stupid way to evaluate any kind of doctrine, religious or secular.

If you're going to ridicule any idea or concept that doesn't have a form of inductive proof or reasoning to back it up, be fucking consistent about it or shut the fuck up.

EDIT: Basically, there's three things I can't stand:

• Dishonesty.
  
• Hypocrisy.
  
• A sense of entitlement and no responsibility, in any sphere of life.
  

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Sep-22-2008 at 01:37