quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo if you want to look at it that way, this ass-hat was an international Egyptian fugitive in the region illegaly having absolutely no business where he was subsequently vaporized. this was in N Waziristan, a completely different ballgame with respect to "Pakistani Sovereignty". look it up. ...and i agree there is no military solution to terror as a whole. i don't think anybody believes that. it's one of those senseless anti-war memes that people like to regugitate because it sounds pretty.

The problem with launching attacks in Pakistani territory is that Pakistan is in a very very delicate situation. The population are becoming more radicalised, especially in the area you mentioned (and elsewhere). It is quite possible that these attacks on Pakistan by the US will have the effect of destabilising the country further, and if the trend carries on you have the frightening prospect of an extremist Islamist country with nuclear bombs.

These attacks could also result in increased radicalisation of British Muslims whose communities originated from, and maintain sting ties to, Pakistan (and we saw the effects of British radicalisation in London with the bombings there)

Next time a soldier dies, post it here and celebrate.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss It works very well in South Korea, Kuwait, Germany, and a lot of places all over the world where we have a presence... just not so much in the middle east. Will it ever? Too early to tell but I'd wager probably not. side note- did you get that job at the fed. reserve man????

LOL, works well if you're an apathetic racist cocksucker.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN for once, im in agreement with Q5.

i also agree with Q.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Our role in the world isn't to tell other world leaders what to do, you obedient authoritarian you...

No, but what if they're asking for a hand...

quote:

Questions raised over Syrian complicity in US raid Syria has denounced a US strike on its territory but sources say Damascus secretly backed the raid The 38-year-old farmer was watering his maize in the scrubby vastness of eastern Syria when four Black Hawk helicopters swooped in low over the palm trees, heading from the border with Iraq formed by the Euphrates River. It was late afternoon. The light was fading and the chill of the desert winter night was setting in. The helicopters, following their leader in a disciplined arc, hovered just above the one-storey concrete and mud homes of the village of Sukariyeh before the attack began. Two of them landed next to a ramshackle building site and uniformed men hit the ground firing. Two other helicopters gave aerial cover. “To begin with I thought they were Syrian helicopters, but then I saw eight or nine soldiers armed to the teeth. They carried big black M16s,” said Mohammad al-Ali, the farmer. His land lies closest to the site where an American commando squad last week staged an unprecedented strike in Syrian territory. The guns were the clue to their identity – only Americans or their allies carry M16s; the Syrian army has Russian-made AK47s. Ali said the troops raced to a compound of new homes, where men of the al-Hamad family were working. “Even before they ran from their helicopters they began to shoot at the workers,” Ali said. “The whole operation took 10 to 15 minutes and they left behind seven corpses.” According to one eyewitness, the Americans took two men, alive or dead, back with them. The Americans’ target was an Al-Qaeda commander identified as Badran Turki Hashim al-Mazidih, also known as Abu Ghadiya, an Iraqi-born terrorist in his late twenties. It is believed that he died in the firefight and his body was removed. The Syrian regime immediately denounced the raid for violating its sovereignty, froze high-level diplomatic relations with Washington and protested at the United Nations in a ritualised show of anger. However, sources in Washington last week revealed to The Sunday Times an intriguingly different background to the events in Sukariyeh. According to one source, the special forces operation had taken place with the full cooperation of the Syrian intelligence services. “Immediately after 9/11, Syrian intelligence cooperation was remarkable,” said the Washington source. “Then ties were broken off, but they have resumed recently.” Abu Ghadiya was feared by the Syrians as an agent of Islamic fundamentalism who was hostile to the secular regime in Damascus. It would be expedient for Syria if America would eliminate him. The threat to the Syrian government has made the regime of President Bashar al-Assad jittery. In September a car bomb exploded in Damascus near its intelligence headquarters. Many of the 17 victims were Shi’ite Muslim pilgrims at a nearby shrine. The Washington source said the Americans regularly communicate with the Syrians through a back channel that runs through Syria’s air force intelligence, the Idarat al-Mukhabarat al-Jawiyya. In the time-honoured tradition of covert US operations in the Middle East, this one seems to have gone spectacularly wrong. The Syrians, who had agreed to turn a blind eye to a supposedly quiet “snatch and grab” raid, could not keep the lid on a firefight in which so many people had died. The operation should have been fast and bloodless. According to the sources, Syrian intelligence tipped off the Americans about Abu Ghadiya’s whereabouts. US electronic intelligence then tracked his exact location, possibly by tracing his satellite telephone, and the helicopters were directed to him. They were supposed to kidnap him and take him to Iraq for questioning. According to defence sources, when the four US helicopters approached the Syrian border, they were detected by Syrian radar. Air force headquarters in Damascus was asked for permission to intercept. After an Israeli airstrike against a suspected nuclear reactor in the same region last year, Syrian air defence has been on high alert. The request was turned down by senior officers because the American operation was expected. It is not clear what went wrong, but it is believed that the helicopters were spotted by the militants on their final approach and a gun battle broke out. That is supported by an account from a local tribal leader, who said a rocket-propelled grenade had been launched from the compound at the helicopter. The firefight blew the cover on a supposedly covert operation. Ninety minutes after the raid, according to a local tribal leader, agents of the feared Mukhabarat, the Syrian intelligence service, flooded into the village. “They threatened us that if anyone said anything about what happened in this area, their family members would die,” he said. Local residents were happy to identify the seven dead villagers as Daoud al-Hamad, who owned the land, and his four sons, who were helping him to build the new houses, along with the site watchman and his cousin. The area is isolated and poor. Locals speak with Iraqi accents, as their tribe extends across the border, and smuggling is the most lucrative local profession. The tribal leader revealed that everyone in the village knew that “jihadis” – extremist Islamic fighters – were operating in the area. “You could often hear shooting from close to the border, which was not clashes but fighters training,” he said. “There are areas along the border where the Mukhabarat doesn’t let people go and that’s where I think the jihadis are. The areas are some of the best ways into Iraq.” Despite the furore over the raid, there can be little doubt that the Americans will celebrate the death of Abu Ghadiya, whom they described as the “most prominent” smuggler for Al-Qaeda in Iraq. He allegedly ran guns, money and foreign fighters along the “rat lines” that lead across the desert into northern Iraq and sometimes led raids himself. In February the US Treasury Department identified Abu Ghadiya as a “high value” Al-Qaeda commander in charge of smuggling “money, weapons, terrorists and other resources . . . to Al-Qaeda in Iraq”. It described him as a Sunni Muslim born in the late 1970s in Mosul and said he had been an aide to the leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who was killed in 2006. Damascus may have other motives for its cooperation with Washington. Some diplomats in the capital think the regime would like to stage its own cross-border strikes against terror groups in Lebanon, which it sees as a threat. “Syrian cross-border incursions into northern Lebanon in pursuit of Fatah al–Islam [a group affiliated with Al-Qaeda] are plausible,” said one source. They may be relying on the United States to turn a blind eye to do so. American officials refused to apologise for the botched raid on Syria. They said the administration was determined to operate under a definition of self-defence that provided for strikes on terrorist targets in any sovereign state. For Al-Qaeda militants, the safe haven of Syria will be looking decidedly cooler as winter sets in.

>>Source<<

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r No, but what if they're asking for a hand... >>Source<<

You believe unnamed government sources huh? I suggest you take this with a grain of salt.

but sources say
sources in Washington
According to the sources
According to defence sources

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton You believe unnamed government sources huh? I suggest you take this with a grain of salt. but sources say sources in Washington According to the sources According to defence sources

Good old (or new?) standards of Fox style journalism eh?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton You believe unnamed government sources huh? I suggest you take this with a grain of salt. but sources say sources in Washington According to the sources According to defence sources

Never said anything of the kind.
However, who else would have that kind of information to the point where a strike team could go in and out in 15-20min?

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton You believe unnamed government sources huh? I suggest you take this with a grain of salt. but sources say sources in Washington According to the sources According to defence sources

why is it so hard to believe there are decent Arabs and Muslims that don't want, even fear, people like this getting into their country, their neighborhoods, their lives? you don't have to answer that, i know why.

here

quote:

Iraqi city calls for US raids on Syria The US must launch a widespread offensive against Syria to have any hope of taking control of al-Qaeda's last bastion in Iraq, it has been claimed By Damien McElroy in Mosul Last Updated: 4:05PM GMT 02 Nov 2008] Officials in Iraq's third largest city, Mosul, have warned the terrorists will not be defeated until the border is secured. Iraq has deployed extra troops, including two brigades of the paramilitary National Police, into the battle for the northern Sunni Arab city, but the effort has been handicapped by widespread infiltration of the security forces by terrorist sympathisers. Dureid Kashmula, the provincial governor, said: "One of the reasons that al-Qaeda is so strong here when security is improving across Iraq is that the terrorists can come across the border. "So the number of security forces is never enough to defeat the threat." Nineveh, the province surrounding Mosul, has a 227-mile border with Syria. Mosul's continuing turmoil barely registers outside the country. Even visitors to the city of 1.7 million view it as a distraction from the overall picture of falling violence in Iraq. Khosro Goran, the vice-governor, said: "We have an open border with Syria and our neighbours are actively encouraging the terrorists. "The majority of people don't believe that Obama or McCain have a choice for a new American policy. President Bush removed Saddam and has been blamed for all the killing in Mosul. The American job is not finished because our enemies are backed by neighbouring countries." An American raid on a Syrian compound it believed was housing al-Qaeda operatives last month triggered calls for repeated sweeps beyond Iraq's western borders. An intelligence officer in Mosul said leading lieutenants of the late dictator Saddam Hussein and Islamists were directing attacks in Mosul from Syria. The debilitating influence of the insurgent factions has sapped confidence within the security forces operating in the city, according to Captain Nabeel Mutlak, a policeman in Mosul since 1996. Terrorist penetration of all ranks is so pervasive that his off-duty colleagues are regularly assassinated in cold blood, mostly in the street or at markets when shopping with their families. "They just shoot and run. Sometimes they use silencers even though they are in a crowded place," he said. "But catching them is impossible because mostly they are based outside the city, even outside the country. "They know how to identify their victims because every neighbourhood has cells that find out who is working for the police, pass the information on and identify the victims. It's impossible to stop." The senior American commander in northern Iraq issued an unprecedented public apology for the failure to control violence in the city in the five years since the war. "We have not supported you enough," said Major General Mark Hertling in a speech at Mosul's police college. "We have focused too much on Baghdad." Mosul is so deeply scarred by five years of unremitting violence that in parts of the city there are the remnants of explosions every ten yards. Capt Mutlak is able to recite the history of a street or area by reeling off fatalistic nicknames. There is Murder Street, Assassins Field and Burning Intersection, named for the regularity of car bombs. Apparently mundane buildings have a story. Mosul's potato distribution centre was bombed last year by American war planes after it was used by al-Qaeda operatives as a bomb making centre. Another street in Amman district was known for the gun battles waged by rival gangs. Raid Ranem has been jobless since a car bomb destroyed his shop at Burning Intersection in 2005. He used a visit by Governor Kashmula to the area to press his claims for compensation. "I have nothing since I lost my business," he said. "That's why the terrorists are so strong, there are no businesses to employ the kids, so they get paid for planting bombs." Hours after the governor's visit a car bomb targeting a police patrol killed two officers. Baghdad launched Operation Lion's Roar to bring Mosul under control six months ago. Gains from the massive mobilisation are tenuous but troops are hopeful that the city is starting to recover. "Any day I come out on the streets and nobody is shooting at me, is a good day," said an American colonel accompanying the city's commander, Lieutenant General Riyadh Jalal Tawfiq Riyadh, on a city centre walkabout. >LINK<

thats a pretty radical departure from our current operations, even given what just happened earlier this week. it would be something i would have to seriously consider the details getting on board with but it goes to show that extremism in most parts of the Arab world is rightly rejected.

Arabs and Muslims who are serious about a peaceful prosperous future for their children are ready to do some serious things about extremism and at sometimes great risk to their own future. that risk requires unbelievable amounts of nuance to ensure their safety.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z LOL, works well if you're an apathetic racist cocksucker.

And/or if you're happy bankrupting our country.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Never said anything of the kind. However, who else would have that kind of information to the point where a strike team could go in and out in 15-20min?

I didn't say don't believe it. I said take it with a grain of salt. Government sources, in my opinion, is code-word for "government propaganda", especially UNNAMED government sources. True or not.

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Last edited by Krypton on Nov-03-2008 at 01:52