I'd say a good dedicated digital audio converter is worth at most $700. Me personally, I'm waiting for an apogee Mini-DAC to show up on eBay so I can get live.com 25% off and 10% of PayPal /w coupon.

Like Alan Nimmo said, the more you spend, the less difference there will be. $700 worth of difference is enough for any hobby producer. If you're producing the new (insert big name here) album, you probably will benefit from a $5,000 DAC.

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its like watts, u must double it to gain 3

quote:

Originally posted by palm its like watts, u must double it to gain 3

Not exactly because sound level and power are physical phenomena which are well described by mathematical models. But yeah you need to double your power to get a 3db increase which is 'noticeable', but not anywhere twice as loud. Akin to light and it's inverse square relationship with distance.

Here you aren't going to get twice as good sound for twice the money, but there will be a 'noticeable' difference int he quality albeit very small if you don't have a professionally treated room and expensive monitors.

I agree with the poster who said Mackies and MOTU are more than enough for any home studio.

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Magnus, don't get sucked in by these audiophiles recommending these pricey soundcards.

I would say that UNTIL you are going to start recording hardware and using outboard FX etc, stick with what you've got. Your music will not get any better, or sound any better by upgrading now the way you say you will. Its money down the drain.

Stick with the 2496. Then, if and when you are ready to use other outboard gear, that is the time to spend more on a better soundcard.
Otherwise as I see it, you'll upgrade now, get no benefit, then when you get more gear, you'll decide you need to upgrade again.

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quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Thats all good advice I'd say. I do have a bit of experience with different converters, MOTUs (Decent), M Audio (poor), focusrite (reasonable) etc. So I do have some idea what I'm talking about I just haven't had the chance to try a lynx yet.

Fair enough, it was just the post said "heard" and "from what I can see". I stand corrected

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips I think MOTU and mackies are more than good enough for ANY type of music - althought if I was recording I'd go RME to be sure. Like I was saying though, it would be silly to get a Lynx and run it through them, because its the two pieces just aren't on the same level.

+1 Totally, RME really are fucking great and it's not just the converters they use, it's about clocking with them and when it comes to recording they really are clear sounding.

I've used a lynx auroura (onc)e and there was a noticeable positive difference, even when compared to the usual PT HD3 systems (which actually I don't like that much - I can't put my finger on it, they do work very well etc. but just seem dead sounding).

The outcome of the earlier posted threads (on page one) were that it's all about economies of scale and diminishing returns.

Basically, part of the issue is, that manufacturers like M-audio made a good sounding card (2496) for about $100. You could easily spend $300 more on an "upgrade" and apart from more connectivity, not get any noticeably better sounding results from it (i.e. EMU, presonus, etc.).

That said, there is a subjective but apparent difference in quality between the $100 2496 and or a $500 motu ultralite (or even an apogee duet $500).

Now if you were to spend another $500-1000 on top of that so a total price $1000 - $1500 on a soundcard the increase in sonic quality is not going be anywhere near as much as from $100 card to the $500 card.

A factor to consider when thinking about any upgrade, is actually whether you will benefit from it and fro that to happen check your contributing factors:

1, are my speakers up to quality (HR824 = yes!)
2, Are they on stands or decoupled or isolated?
3, Am I using good, balanced cables? (monster, hosa = shit / Mogami,canare, van damme = great).
4, Is my room treated to well enough to let me hear these tiny differences in sonic quality?

If the answer is yes the go for it (the ultralite), if the answer to any is no and you don't want to fix these points, then stick with the 2496, it's a good card for home use.

If I were recording even occasionally, I would be happy with Motu for the price and connectivity, but overjoyed with Lynx, RME or Metric Halo if I could afford it (in that order).

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN

No worries, I wouldn't say my ears are great and I'm not much of an engineer, so you're probably more qualified on this stuff than me in that sense

I'm really not too keen on M audio stuff, even around here I've heard a lot of bad things about their drivers and sound quality. In that range I think presonus makes better kit, they've got enough connectivity at least.

My Digidesign m box is pretty bad IMO, I'm more and more thinking that it sounds like its got a blanket over it, I think because I bought an echo indigo for DJing which (it sounds like) has better quality its become more obvious to me. Thats whats got me thinking about converters, mics and preamps more... Problem is, I can't objectively quantify the differences, but after a month of using something I know that they're there. Thats why I'm relying a lot on reviews of more experienced people. So its interesting to hear that you're not keen on the digi 192s.

I do disagree with you about those factors you listed though, because if your doing recording then its best to get the best quality you can into the box, then at least if you improve your monitors and room later you can go back and remix. Obviously if you're just monitoring through the interface it doesn't matter.

I suppose my perspective is a bit different in that sense, I'm not only an EDM producer. Because I do so much live recording, I do really want to have good kit, because its not like a synth performance where you record the midi and can recapture the audio any time. A guitar, piano, violin or vocal performance happens once, and by the time you buy a new converter, you may never get back that perfect take...

If I was just monitoring through a DAC I would probably not even bother with an apogee, I might even stick with that M audio. Especially given I don't have good monitors (only AKG 240s).

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quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips I'm really not too keen on M audio stuff, even around here I've heard a lot of bad things about their drivers and sound quality. In that range I think presonus makes better kit, they've got enough connectivity at least.

Please elaborate, because I haven't heard any (or can't recall any) on the forums I'm part of. I've used m-audio for a couple of years, I was surprised by it's stability, no problems whatsoever. I had a creative card before, so maybe that put things into perspective haha, that creative was the mother of all my BSOD's. As soon as I took it out the problem was solved.

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quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller BSOD

???
whats that? BullShit OverDose?

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller Please elaborate, because I haven't heard any (or can't recall any) on the forums I'm part of. I've used m-audio for a couple of years, I was surprised by it's stability, no problems whatsoever. I had a creative card before, so maybe that put things into perspective haha, that creative was the mother of all my BSOD's. As soon as I took it out the problem was solved.

I don't know what first gave me the impression of their rubbishness, I just remember when I first joined here a lot of people were saying don't buy m audio or emu. Mainly I think it was issues with driver instability and latency, also, I think I heard something about dodgy phantom power on the pres at one stage?
I never paid much attention, just noted not to buy that stuff. When I heard an M audio in action (once very briefly through my own headphones) I've thought that it were a bit brittle sounding, and also just a bit sort of fuzzy and definitionless in the lower mids generally. It just didn't sound solid IMO...

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quote:

Originally posted by palm ??? whats that? BullShit OverDose?

http://www.google.com/search?q=bsod

or

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bsod

quote:

Originally posted by Magnus So after reading those threads and doing some research online, I was thinking of deciding between the following since I'm on a PC: 1. Emu 0404 USB 2.0 Audio/MIDI Interface 2. Focusrite Saffire 3. MOTU UltraLite-MK3 Which would you recommend? I looked at the RME Fireface 400 and 800 but they are just way too expensive for me at this point in my life. Thanks!

I own a 2496. It's OK but it doesn't have balanced inputs/outputs, has few inputs in the first place and sounds good but not amazing.

Do you need more inputs? Outputs? Mic preamps?
Alot of other sound cards are more expensive because they have more inputs/outputs/mic preamps/etc, all of which may be useless to you.

I have the Focusrite Saffire LE. It's the same as the Saffire but cheaper, without the built-in effects.
-It sounds stunning compared to the 2496. Very, very good (but obv you need a good setup to be able to tell the difference).
-The mic pre-amps are also pretty good but I typically use my standalone preamp/condenser mic/compressor setup.
-There's a crapload of balanced inputs/outputs
-The Saffire driver software (where you set inputs/outputs/levels/monitoring options) is not intuitive or user friendly at all. But it works.
-It's FireWire so you should make sure you have a good FW chipset (like a Texas Instruments one)


My production partner had the 0404 for the first year we were producing. The FW chipset in his laptop didn't allow him to use his FW card so we had to use that USB 2.0 card. There are almost no "GOOD" USB sound cards. The standard simply doesn't offer the stability/latency needed for ultrafast pro audio.

With that said, it did the job, with a few crackles and pops (nothing too bad though). I wouldn't recommend it unless you absolutely have to. The Saffire sounds WAY better and it's more stable.


I haven't tried the MOTU, but from my research last time I was shopping, the Saffire had the best bang for the buck.

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quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller Please elaborate, because I haven't heard any (or can't recall any) on the forums I'm part of. I've used m-audio for a couple of years, I was surprised by it's stability, no problems whatsoever. I had a creative card before, so maybe that put things into perspective haha, that creative was the mother of all my BSOD's. As soon as I took it out the problem was solved.

M-Audio has pretty bad drivers, and even worse driver support. I've had SO MANY problems with so many different M-Audio products.

Still, the 2496 is amazing value.

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