quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...tom-daschle.php

Who do you think will take over the HHS department?

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss haha! This keeps getting better. Apparently, Daschle can't even use the Geithner "I’m so stupid" excuse, as ABC also discovers that he flat out failed to report direct income: Plus, Daschle claimed almost $15,000 in charitable donations over three years to organizations that don't qualify for the deduction. How many Americans make so much money that they could forget about $83,000 of it in a year? http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalp...daschle-ta.html

to be fair, that article says he failed to report 101K of value from the use of a car and driver of a friend. that's questionable whether it's actually income or a gift. He could have thought his friend was giving him a gift.

as for geithner, you are thrown so many forms to sign when you get a job, and most of those forms aren't read, that it is easy for someone without knowledge of taxation not to pay social security and medicare contributions.

I don't know how many of you actually fill out your own tax forms (not 1040EZ), but when it includes dividend income, charitable contributions, mortgage interest deductions, state tax deductions, and other business income and deduction, it becomes very time consuming and possibly confusing. If someone owns a business as an LLC, partnership, or sole proprietorship some tax issues can be extremely confusing, which could easily lead an average person to incorrectly file their tax return. A business owner could easily over-depreciate an asset incorrectly, which would lead to underreporting income (which the news media would simply say he failed to report XXX amount of income). In reality, Daschle likely reported the income as revenue, and took more deductions than permitted.

Taxation is easily the most complicated area of law, which is why most tax lawyers have two law degrees. Most people (with substantial income) have their taxes completed by accountants (either solo practitioners or at small firms), many of whom aren't quite as familiar with the complexities of the law of taxation. Also, many accountants (but certainly not all) see the law as black-and-white, and are extremely aggressive in their positions on the law. Regardless of who was being accused of underreporting taxes, I would be hesitant to believe that the person did so without the advice of an accountant (professionals that many people see as an authority on taxation, rightly or wrongly so).

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Feb-03-2009 at 23:23

Does anyone else find it amusing that this thread was started by someone that wrote this a few months ago?

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss it's greasy, not sticky...lol. Hell no I wish I had a personal income of $600K. But I don't. However I do have a legitimate CPA who always does my business and personal taxes, and I've paid my deductions accordingly. It's just fortunate for me that in the last year, my company's business operations have flourished overseas and given me more flexability. Really, I'm not doing anything illegal. It's totally legal to get paid through a company I work for through the Malaysian based division, into a legal bank account set up over there, and make wire transfers in the amount of my choosing to anywhere I please.

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...d=&pagenumber=1

Hope you're never planning to apply for a government job The17sss

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Does anyone else find it amusing that this thread was started by someone that wrote this a few months ago? http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...d=&pagenumber=1 Hope you're never planning to apply for a government job The17sss

haha.. why, what would happen if I did? They wouldn't hire me because I was searching for a totally legal loophole? I've still paid my taxes accordingly every year, no matter what. After that thread, I had some off the record discussion with Jerez on the PM about taxes and such and realized that although like everybody else I would love to not pay taxes like our friends in the Democrat party, I can't get around it unless I have dual citizenship (and probably live for a period greater than 6 months) in Malaysia where my other business runs.

Would I skirt around it if there was a [legal] loophole? Sure. But I'm not breaking any U.S. laws and I haven't... and it doesn't make me a scumbag for fantasizing about not paying taxes. Rangle, Daschle, Geitner, that stupid lady named today, etc... all of them knowing broke the tax law while in positions of power. There's no comparison here.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Would I skirt around it if there was a [legal] loophole? Sure. But I'm not breaking any U.S. laws and I haven't... and it doesn't make me a scumbag for fantasizing about not paying taxes. Rangle, Daschle, Geitner, that stupid lady named today, etc... all of them knowing broke the tax law while in positions of power. There's no comparison here.

She wasn't named today, it was just brought up in the past few days. The administration has known about it for 3 months.

And you can assuredly state that all of them knew about it? What proof do you have of that? I'm not excusing it, but as Jerz stated a few posts ago, it's not really as cut and dry as people want to portray.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

Daschle should have just followed Rumsfeld's lead:

quote:

One of the unseen costs of Tom Daschle using up all of America's car services is that ordinary war-mongering political has-beens are forced to fend for themselves at street corners, waiting for buses. That's the situation that ex-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld found himself in Monday, in a report from Roll Call's Emily Heil and Elizabeth Brotherton. (Roll Call's story is behind a pay-firewall. You can read John Byrne's witty retelling on Raw Story here.) Basically, Rumsfeld was in Dupont Circle, attempting to catch the 42 bus, and all this happened: quote: With his SmarTrip card in hand -- the DC metro's rechargeable fare card -- Rumsfeld "stood quietly" waiting for the bus. "It was almost like the guy at the first day of work," Heil and Brotherton's source remarked. "He was looking at the card, thinking, 'How does this work?'" The bus eventually came but "was too packed to pick up any more passengers," the reporters wrote. At least Rumsfeld was in possession of a SmarTrip card, clear and convincing evidence that he did not receive his public transportation intelligence from celebrated pinhead Douglas Feith. Unable to board the bus, Rumsfeld took it on the arches. As Roll Call's source details, "He made it down the hill just fine...He didn't fall or anything." So there you have it! Donald Rumsfeld, a man for whom reports of being able to walk must be corroborated by witnesses.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/...s_n_163533.html

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy She wasn't named today, it was just brought up in the past few days. The administration has known about it for 3 months. And you can assuredly state that all of them knew about it? What proof do you have of that? I'm not excusing it, but as Jerz stated a few posts ago, it's not really as cut and dry as people want to portray.

Geithner: He paid his back taxes for 2003 and 2004 when the IRS notified him (in 2006), but not until this past November 21, coincidentally the very day he was named Treasury appointee, did he pay them for 2001 and 2002.

quote:

Which begs the question: If the IRS notified Geithner in 2006 that he owed self-employment taxes for his time at the IMF in 2003 and 2004, why did he not realize that those taxes should have applied to him in 2001 and 2002 as well?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalp...ky-road-fo.html

Daschle: Same thing... coincidentally, he only reported his problems after getting the HHS nomination. He also failed to report DIRECT INCOME:

quote:

The report indicates that Daschle's failure to pay more than $101,000 taxes on the car and driver a wealthy friend let him use from 2005 through 2007 is not the only tax issue the former Senate Majority Leader has been dealing with since his December nomination prompted a more thorough examination of his income tax returns. Mr. Daschle also didn't report $83,333 in consulting income in 2007.

This doesn't include the $15,000 in charitable donations he made over three years to organizations that don't qualify for the deduction.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalp...daschle-ta.html

Killefer: This one is a little harder to pin down, but I've placed leins on dozens of peoples' homes or businesses where they failed to pay their bills on time, and they know when there's a lien.

Charlie Rangle: He acknowledged himself last fall that he failed to pay thousands in real estate taxes for rental income he earned from a property in the Dominican Republic. This doesn't include inappropriate taxpayer funded use of a Cadillac and 4 rent controlled apartments in Harlem. With the Caddy, it was hilarious that suggested he was simply doing it for his constituents. Behold the sacrifice of the hardworking public servant, forced to travel by Cadillac just to make you smile! (If you want the video clip of this let me know).

Franken: His total tax bill came to over $70,000 over a four year period in which he knowingly ignored tax responsibilities.... in 17 states.

quote:

DFL U.S. Senate candidate Al Franken owes $70,000 in back taxes in 17 states, where he earned income going back to 2003. Franken has been under fire since early March, when a Republican operative revealed that Franken had failed to pay workers' compensation and disability premiums for employees of his New York-based corporation, Alan Franken, Inc., between 2002 and 2005. New York state officials had tried to collect the back premiums for four years, resorting to a collection agency and even filing a summary judgment against Franken in state Supreme Court last May for $25,000.

http://www.startribune.com/politics...e/18377884.html

Franken never filed any tax returns for income in states other than his residence, even though his corporation generated revenue in 1/3 of the states in the US. If he didn't know about filing the taxes, he certainly knew enough to incorporate to get those tax advangates.

I think you're being too soft on these people man.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Unable to board the bus, Rumsfeld took it on the arches. As Roll Call's source details, "He made it down the hill just fine...He didn't fall or anything."

quote:

Originally posted by Renzo Who do you think will take over the HHS department?

I'm beginning to think Howard Dean. And I'm ok with that. After all, he passes the17sss's doctor litmus test.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Geithner: He paid his back taxes for 2003 and 2004 when the IRS notified him (in 2006), but not until this past November 21, coincidentally the very day he was named Treasury appointee, did he pay them for 2001 and 2002. http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalp...ky-road-fo.html

i'm not defending geithner, but he had no legal obligation to pay taxes that were due more than 3 years ago. it's called a statute of limitations.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Daschle: Same thing... coincidentally, he only reported his problems after getting the HHS nomination. He also failed to report DIRECT INCOME: This doesn't include the $15,000 in charitable donations he made over three years to organizations that don't qualify for the deduction. http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalp...daschle-ta.html

like i said before, i'm highly suspicious that daschle legitimately knew he wasn't reporting income from car services he received. he legitimately could have believed it was a gift and not reportable as income. most people don't report these items as income because they have NO IDEA THAT IT IS TREATED AS INCOME. I would suspect most accountants have no idea it is income.

As for underrporting consulting income, i would be highly suspicious if that means he didn't report revenue. the more likely scenario is that he overreported deductions or credits. people in his position simply don't fail to report almost 100K of consulting income that the payor would have to report in a 1099 to the IRS. most people writing these news items are unfamiliar with how tax law and forms actually work.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Killefer: This one is a little harder to pin down, but I've placed leins on dozens of peoples' homes or businesses where they failed to pay their bills on time, and they know when there's a lien.

i'm not familiar with this particular issue.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Charlie Rangle: He acknowledged himself last fall that he failed to pay thousands in real estate taxes for rental income he earned from a property in the Dominican Republic. This doesn't include inappropriate taxpayer funded use of a Cadillac and 4 rent controlled apartments in Harlem. With the Caddy, it was hilarious that suggested he was simply doing it for his constituents. Behold the sacrifice of the hardworking public servant, forced to travel by Cadillac just to make you smile! (If you want the video clip of this let me know).

rangle is a scumbag!

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Franken: His total tax bill came to over $70,000 over a four year period in which he knowingly ignored tax responsibilities.... in 17 states. http://www.startribune.com/politics...e/18377884.html Franken never filed any tax returns for income in states other than his residence, even though his corporation generated revenue in 1/3 of the states in the US. If he didn't know about filing the taxes, he certainly knew enough to incorporate to get those tax advangates. I think you're being too soft on these people man.

without knowing more facts, it's difficult to say whether he actually owed taxes to these states. a business is only liable for taxes in a state if it has sufficient nexus with that state. generating revenue in a state isn't necessarily enough for a state to tax that business. certain courts hold that physical presence is necessary for a state to tax a business, and other courts apply a more liberal test in which directing economic activities towards a state is enough for taxing a business. it all depends on the activities and the states.

EDIT: I Just read the article, Franken definitely owes taxes in states in which he made personal appearances. If he was purposefully evading those taxes he's a scumbag. If he was relying on an accountant that said he didn't owe taxes in those states he's a moron and his accountant is a douche bag.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Feb-04-2009 at 06:53

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss haha.. why, what would happen if I did? They wouldn't hire me because I was searching for a totally legal loophole? I've still paid my taxes accordingly every year, no matter what. After that thread, I had some off the record discussion with Jerez on the PM about taxes and such and realized that although like everybody else I would love to not pay taxes like our friends in the Democrat party, I can't get around it unless I have dual citizenship (and probably live for a period greater than 6 months) in Malaysia where my other business runs. Would I skirt around it if there was a [legal] loophole? Sure. But I'm not breaking any U.S. laws and I haven't... and it doesn't make me a scumbag for fantasizing about not paying taxes. Rangle, Daschle, Geitner, that stupid lady named today, etc... all of them knowing broke the tax law while in positions of power. There's no comparison here.

One of the most famous jurists of all time, Learned Hand, famously said:

quote:

"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands."

However, the777sss, dual citizenship will do nothing for you as long as you retain your US citizenship (us citizens are subject to tax on worldwide income). However, there is an $80K exclusion (it's inflation adjusted so i'm not sure of the current exclusion) for foreign earned income if you can establish that you are a resident of a foreign country for the entire year (or 330 days). If that doesn't work, then you can get a foreign tax credit for foreign taxes paid, but because there is a limitation to the credit, you will pay taxes at least as high as the US rate.

As i said before, you could structure your compensation as a loan (which would be untaxed, but would need to be repaid and subject to arm's length standard interest rates), but that runs the risk of being re-characterized by the IRS as an equity distribution (fully taxable). you could also take vested underwater equity compensation (call options with a strike price greater than the FMV of the stock - which would be untaxed because they aren't worth anything to you), and borrow against the underlying value of the stock (if you could find a bank that would do such a thing). for example, if the underlying stock is worth 50, and the strike price is 55, the option is worth almost nothing to you, thus untaxed. however, a bank may lend you 40 dollars because if you default on the loan the bank could pay 5 dollars to get 50 dollars worth of stock, thus becoming whole, and earning an extra 5 dollars. this is a strategy that many I-Bankers used before their options became absolutely worthless and banks began calling in the loans when the principal of the loans greatly exceeded the potential return for the banks.

there are definitely options, but mostly options that simply defer taxes.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Feb-04-2009 at 07:40

Sounds so complicated. Do you only practice law in NJ? I may need your services