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Originally posted by jerZ07002 that has always been a cost of acquiring such rights. if humans weren't willing to sacrifice their own lives for something greater then most of the world would still be rule by kings or dictators. surely, most people would agree that the alternative (a very small percentage of the population being killed) is much better.

Yea, the cost of people acquiring there OWN rights. You telling me we can just force people to accept our way of doing things? Clearly, that strategy is blowing up right in front your faces. Admit it.

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Kings and dictators look out for number one, and a life in poverty or servitude under those rulers isn't necessarily better than death. I would even be willing to say that if many people didn't sacrifice their lives in the wars and struggles during the 1800-1900s so the western world was substantially democractic, then our world would be significantly different (technologically, medically, etc...). Being democractic allowed capitalism to flourish, which resulted in vast technological advances. Without this political change, I suspect that a much larger percentage of the world's population would be living in poverty, and human health would be in far worse shape than it is today.

What's your point? That we have a right to conquer the world and enforce our way of governing? That's got to be the most ridiculous inference I'v seen for a long time.

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it's easy for someone in our position to say life is better than death, but that's because we don't live in despair. You always justify muslim terrorists for this same reason, but erradicating dictatorships is also a method of attacking poverty. I'm not saying we should have fought in iraq (because i was absolutely against the war), but look at the bigger picture.

Justify muslim terrorists huh? I think not. I merely state the reason why they fight, something none of you seem to understand. They must just wake up one day, "Oh, I feel like blowing myself up! Oh joy!" No, sirs, that's not the way the world works. And if I recall, our deposing Saddam didn't lower poverty in Iraq. It's made it worse. Ever heard of "brain drain"?

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Originally posted by Krypton I don't know, you seem to justify the massive suffering in the country by saying, "oh, at least they can vote." If it were me, and I lost half my family to some bombings, kidnapping, or refugee status, I'd say to hell with voting! I'v taken a clear look at it. Fuck Saddam. Fuck Bush. Pay attention to the average folk. I guess 100,000 dead Iraqis means nothing to you, I understand...

March 16th, 1988 – In the Iraqi city of Halabja thousands unknowingly face a hellish death. The man responsible for this unspeakable horror is notorious Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. In an act of brutality he unleashes a massive chemical weapons attack designed to wipe-out an entire city of innocent civilians.

March 16th, 1988, Saddam Hussein unleashes his chemical weapons arsenal on the Kurdish village of Halabja. The village residents believe they are safe in the their underground shelters, but, nothing could be further from the truth. As thick smoke and the odors of garlic and rotten apples begin to engulf the village, it becomes obvious that this is no ordinary attack. The Iraqi's drop more chemical bombs on the roads leading out of Halabja, trapping the villagers as the poison gas grips the city, seeking the low points and killing the citizens in their deep shelters. Clouds of mustard gas blind and burn everyone in their path; nerve agents Tabun, Sarin and V-X touch the innocent civilians, and thousands die a gruesome death.


When the dust finally settles, Halabja is a city of death – an estimated 5000 die, seventy-five percent are women and children. In August of 1988, Iran finally agrees to a ceasefire with Iraq, and the war ends in a stalemate. Free of the conflict with Iran, Saddam turns the full force of his military on the Kurds, and on September 6th, 1988 Hussein successfully ends his campaign of brutality. In a little more than six months, he has killed almost one hundred thousand Iraqi Kurds. Saddam's poison gas program becomes a major target in operation Desert Storm, and Hussein ends his rein in December of 2003, when American troops find the former dictator hiding in a hole near his hometown of Tikrit.


Imagine if he would never have been brought down.

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Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS Imagine if he would never have been brought down.

i wasn't going to continue on with this tangent, but i just couldn't help it after Halabja was brought up.

Saddam Hussein is obviously a genocidal mother******, but with the Kurdish example, his power was nothing after 91, since they had gained autonomy and were protected by allied airpower.

Im also going to bring up the point that halabja could be technically seen as a battleground, the kurdish rebels were notorious for striking deals with the Iranians, and Saddam's regime acted in a ruthless manner as a result.

You know the Halabja package was not publicized to the public right away(gotta focus on evil ayatollah), infact the US had initially blamed the Iranians-with full knowledge of what happened.

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AMMAN, Jordan: In calling for regime change in Iraq, George W. Bush has accused Saddam Hussein of being a man who gassed his own people. Bush is right, of course. The public record shows that Saddam's regime repeatedly spread poisonous gases on Kurdish villages in 1987 and 1988 in an attempt to put down a persistent rebellion. The biggest such attack was against Halabja in March 1988. According to local organizations providing relief to the survivors, some 6,800 Kurds were killed, the vast majority of them civilians. It is a good thing that Bush has highlighted these atrocities by a regime that is more brutal than most. Yet it is cynical to use them as a justification for American plans to terminate the regime. By any measure, the American record on Halabja is shameful. Analysis of thousands of captured Iraqi secret police documents and declassified U.S. government documents, as well as interviews with scores of Kurdish survivors, senior Iraqi defectors and retired U.S. intelligence officers, show (1) that Iraq carried out the attack on Halabja, and (2) that the United States, fully aware it was Iraq, accused Iran, Iraq's enemy in a fierce war, of being partly responsible for the attack. The State Department instructed its diplomats to say that Iran was partly to blame. The result of this stunning act of sophistry was that the international community failed to muster the will to condemn Iraq strongly for an act as heinous as the terrorist strike on the World Trade Center. Iraq had also just embarked on a counterinsurgency campaign, called the Anfal, against its rebellious Kurds. In this effort, too, the regime's resort to chemical weapons gave it a decisive edge, enabling the systematic killing of an estimated 100,000 men, women, and children. The deliberate American prevarication on Halabja was the logical, although probably undesired, outcome of a pronounced six-year tilt toward Iraq, seen as a bulwark against the perceived threat posed by Iran's zealous brand of politicized Islam. The United States began the tilt after Iraq, the aggressor in the war, was expelled from Iranian territory by a resurgent Iran, which then decided to pursue its own, fruitless version of regime change in Baghdad. There was little love for what virtually all of Washington recognized as an unsavory regime, but Iraq was considered the lesser evil. Sealed by National Security Decision Directive 114 in 1983, the tilt included billions of dollars in loan guarantees and other credits to Iraq. Sensing correctly that it had carte blanche, Saddam's regime escalated its resort to gas warfare, graduating to ever more lethal agents. Because of the strong Western animus against Iran, few paid heed. Then came Halabja. Unfortunately for Iraq's sponsors, Iran rushed Western reporters to the blighted town. The horrifying scenes they filmed were presented on primetime television a few days later. Soon Ted Koppel could be seen putting the Iraqi ambassador's feetto the fire on Nightline. In response, the United States launched the "Iran too" gambit. The story was cooked up in the Pentagon, interviews with the principals show. A newly declassified State Department document demonstrates that U.S. diplomats received instructions to press this line with U.S. allies, and to decline to discuss the details. It took seven weeks for the UN Security Council to censure the Halabja attack. Even then, its choice of neutral language (condemning the "continued use of chemical weapons in the conflict between the Islamic Republic of Iran and Iraq," and calling on "both sides to refrain from the future use of chemical weapons") diffused the effect of its belated move. Iraq proceeded to step up its use of gas until the end of the war and even afterward, during the final stage of the Anfal campaign, to devastating effect. When I visited Halabja last spring, the town, razed by successive Iranian and Iraqi occupiers, had been rebuilt, but the physical and psychological wounds remained. Some of those who engineered the tilt today are back in power in the Bush administration. They have yet to account for their judgment that it was Iran, not Iraq, that posed the primary threat to the Gulf; for building up Iraq so that it thought it could invade Kuwait and get away with it; for encouraging Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs by giving the regime a de facto green light on chemical weapons use; and for turning a blind eye to Iraq's worst atrocities, and then lying about it.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2003/01...ed3_.php?page=1

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Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS March 16th, 1988 – In the Iraqi city of Halabja thousands unknowingly face a hellish death. The man responsible for this unspeakable horror is notorious Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. In an act of brutality he unleashes a massive chemical weapons attack designed to wipe-out an entire city of innocent civilians. March 16th, 1988, Saddam Hussein unleashes his chemical weapons arsenal on the Kurdish village of Halabja. The village residents believe they are safe in the their underground shelters, but, nothing could be further from the truth. As thick smoke and the odors of garlic and rotten apples begin to engulf the village, it becomes obvious that this is no ordinary attack. The Iraqi's drop more chemical bombs on the roads leading out of Halabja, trapping the villagers as the poison gas grips the city, seeking the low points and killing the citizens in their deep shelters. Clouds of mustard gas blind and burn everyone in their path; nerve agents Tabun, Sarin and V-X touch the innocent civilians, and thousands die a gruesome death. When the dust finally settles, Halabja is a city of death – an estimated 5000 die, seventy-five percent are women and children. In August of 1988, Iran finally agrees to a ceasefire with Iraq, and the war ends in a stalemate. Free of the conflict with Iran, Saddam turns the full force of his military on the Kurds, and on September 6th, 1988 Hussein successfully ends his campaign of brutality. In a little more than six months, he has killed almost one hundred thousand Iraqi Kurds. Saddam's poison gas program becomes a major target in operation Desert Storm, and Hussein ends his rein in December of 2003, when American troops find the former dictator hiding in a hole near his hometown of Tikrit. Imagine if he would never have been brought down.

Imagine who supplied him with the chemical precursors for those weapons... Hint...



LOL, you think we didn't have a hand in Saddam's atrocities...think again...

Sorry, but all the justifications you keep giving for deposing Saddam are ridiculous at best. The number of people killed, wounded, and made refugees were on par with Saddam's own actions, so it can be said that, we are no better than Saddam himself...

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Last edited by Krypton on Feb-21-2009 at 19:38

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Originally posted by Krypton Imagine who supplied him with the chemical precursors for those weapons... Hint... LOL, you think we didn't have a hand in Saddam's atrocities...think again... Sorry, but all the justifications you keep giving for deposing Saddam are ridiculous at best. The number of people killed, wounded, and made refugees were on par with Saddam's own actions, so it can be said that, we are no better than Saddam himself...

How many mass graves were created after the overthrow of Saddam again?

I'm sorry but your analogy is just way below you Krypton.

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r How many mass graves were created after the overthrow of Saddam again? I'm sorry but your analogy is just way below you Krypton.

Is that a serious question? Because there actually were many. In fact, the Interior Ministry maintained a network of torture prisons. I don't care what any of you say. There is no excuse whatsoever to, unprovoked, invade a country claiming "liberation", while at the same time, causing the occupied society is self-destruct, and inadvertantly causing the deads of hundreds of thousands of people, the maiming of hundreds of thousands more, the destruction of civil institutions, or millions made refugees, or the flight of professionals from the country, and I could go on and on and on. I won't accept any justification any of you give at any moment of day.

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Originally posted by Krypton Is that a serious question? Because there actually were many. In fact, the Interior Ministry maintained a network of torture prisons. I don't care what any of you say. There is no excuse whatsoever to, unprovoked, invade a country claiming "liberation", while at the same time, causing the occupied society is self-destruct, and inadvertantly causing the deads of hundreds of thousands of people, the maiming of hundreds of thousands more, the destruction of civil institutions, or millions made refugees, or the flight of professionals from the country, and I could go on and on and on. I won't accept any justification any of you give at any moment of day.

Honestly I am tired of your Code Pink ethics. Pick a side. you clearly are agianst Democracy. Does Genocide suit you? Explain yourself then. Quit shiting on everything. Geert Wilders is coming to America and in your eyes he is a dictator. By your words you should be in hiding. Fighting isnt in your blood so why bother posting at all. You are a coward face it. If you are going to reply please let me know so I can kneel down to your level.

PS Get out of America..............

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Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS Honestly I am tired of your Code Pink ethics.

Then go to sleep or deal with it.

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Pick a side.

Clearly, I have.

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you clearly are agianst Democracy.

No, I'm against forced democracy.

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Does Genocide suit you?

Does it suit you?

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Explain yourself then.

I very much am. You clearly haven't.

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Quit shiting on everything.

Only on the bullshit you keep posting.

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Geert Wilders is coming to America and in your eyes he is a dictator.

When did I ever say he's a dictator. I said he's a fucking idiot.

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By your words you should be in hiding.

From what? The Gestapo? You are the one whose obviously against democracy. Sorry I'm not patriotic enough for your bars and stars. In fact, true patriots question their government...

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Fighting isnt in your blood so why bother posting at all.

Riiiiight. I post to counter the endless bullshit I hear coming from the likes of you...

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You are a coward face it.

LOL, so cowards are those who question their government actions?

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If you are going to reply please let me know so I can kneel down to your level.

I certainly will reply. I have been for the last 6 years. My "level" views war as not an means to an end. If you don't like that, then kindly fuck off, join up and go fight in the shitholes of Iraq and Afghanistan.

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PS Get out of America..............

PS I am America...............

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Amusing how you'v completely abandoned arguing on point, and have simply resorted to personal insults. Is your position that much without foundation, you just can't help yourself?? Amusing...

Let me top this off with a quote..a little summary of bar n stars debate strategy....and frankly, that of our friend latinlover...

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"Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Hermann Göring

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Last edited by Krypton on Feb-22-2009 at 10:42