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Originally posted by Groundhog Boy This was, by far, the stupidest thing in this budget. So let me get this straight, falling home prices is the problem, so we're going to pull away incentives to buy homes? But we're talking about principal reductions for those in foreclosure (some of which are probably the same people that can't get deductions now, tbh)? Who's fucking brilliant idea was this? And on charities, too?? Aren't they already being pinched enough?

looks like a much more liberal policy stance than i wanted from the obama admin (i thought his admin would be more moderate than his rhetoric). I don't care much for the mortgage interest deduction to begin with, but coupled with principal reductions for stupid people, and this admin has the economic incentives way out of order.

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Originally posted by Groundhog Boy I don't understand how both parties have so little economic sense. There's really no one to support anymore, between the party of NO! and this craziness. I expected the Bush tax cuts to expire, and that was all well and good, but this is sheer lunacy when you're trying to inspire economic growth. It's as though the only plus I can see with the Obama administration in that area is ending the sinkhole that is Iraq, and that's not even looking it'll have as large of a cutback as once thought.

unfortunately, there isn't enough money in government for business people. when you have the option of making $1m working at a bank, or 150K working at the treasury/other government agencies, most intelligent people decide to work in private industry. I'm convinced not too many intelligent people wish to venture into the senate or house. If you look at the bios on some of these senators (and especially the representatives), most prestiguous employers would simply throw out their resumes.

This is heartening.

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The 2% Illusion Take everything they earn, and it still won't be enough. President Obama has laid out the most ambitious and expensive domestic agenda since LBJ, and now all he has to do is figure out how to pay for it. On Tuesday, he left the impression that we need merely end "tax breaks for the wealthiest 2% of Americans," and he promised that households earning less than $250,000 won't see their taxes increased by "one single dime." [Review & Outlook] AP This is going to be some trick. Even the most basic inspection of the IRS income tax statistics shows that raising taxes on the salaries, dividends and capital gains of those making more than $250,000 can't possibly raise enough revenue to fund Mr. Obama's new spending ambitions. Consider the IRS data for 2006, the most recent year that such tax data are available and a good year for the economy and "the wealthiest 2%." Roughly 3.8 million filers had adjusted gross incomes above $200,000 in 2006. (That's about 7% of all returns; the data aren't broken down at the $250,000 point.) These people paid about $522 billion in income taxes, or roughly 62% of all federal individual income receipts. The richest 1% -- about 1.65 million filers making above $388,806 -- paid some $408 billion, or 39.9% of all income tax revenues, while earning about 22% of all reported U.S. income. Note that federal income taxes are already "progressive" with a 35% top marginal rate, and that Mr. Obama is (so far) proposing to raise it only to 39.6%, plus another two percentage points in hidden deduction phase-outs. He'd also raise capital gains and dividend rates, but those both yield far less revenue than the income tax. These combined increases won't come close to raising the hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue that Mr. Obama is going to need. The Opinion Journal Widget Download Opinion Journal's widget and link to the most important editorials and op-eds of the day from your blog or Web page. But let's not stop at a 42% top rate; as a thought experiment, let's go all the way. A tax policy that confiscated 100% of the taxable income of everyone in America earning over $500,000 in 2006 would only have given Congress an extra $1.3 trillion in revenue. That's less than half the 2006 federal budget of $2.7 trillion and looks tiny compared to the more than $4 trillion Congress will spend in fiscal 2010. Even taking every taxable "dime" of everyone earning more than $75,000 in 2006 would have barely yielded enough to cover that $4 trillion. Fast forward to this year (and 2010) when the Wall Street meltdown and recession are going to mean far few taxpayers earning more than $500,000. Profits are plunging, businesses are cutting or eliminating dividends, hedge funds are rolling up, and, most of all, capital nationwide is on strike. Raising taxes now will thus yield far less revenue than it would have in 2006. Mr. Obama is of course counting on an economic recovery. And he's also assuming along with the new liberal economic consensus that taxes don't matter to growth or job creation. The truth, though, is that they do. Small- and medium-sized businesses are the nation's primary employers, and lower individual tax rates have induced thousands of them to shift from filing under the corporate tax system to the individual system, often as limited liability companies or Subchapter S corporations. The Tax Foundation calculates that merely restoring the higher, Clinton-era tax rates on the top two brackets would hit 45% to 55% of small-business income, depending on how inclusively "small business" is defined. These owners will find a way to declare less taxable income. The bottom line is that Mr. Obama is selling the country on a 2% illusion. Unwinding the U.S. commitment in Iraq and allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire can't possibly pay for his agenda. Taxes on the not-so-rich will need to rise as well. On that point, by the way, it's unclear why Mr. Obama thinks his climate-change scheme won't hit all Americans with higher taxes. Selling the right to emit greenhouse gases amounts to a steep new tax on most types of energy and, therefore, on all Americans who use energy. There's a reason that Charlie Rangel's Ways and Means panel, which writes tax law, is holding hearings this week on cap-and-trade regulation. Mr. Obama is very good at portraying his agenda as nothing more than center-left pragmatism. But pragmatists don't ignore the data. And the reality is that the only way to pay for Mr. Obama's ambitions is to reach ever deeper into the pockets of the American middle class.

I'm just wondering when the vilification of the poor and unemployed is going to subside.

___________________

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

They deserve to be vilified if they feel they are entitled to other people's money.

That goes for corporations too.

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Originally posted by josh4 BTW, The17sss may recognize the above author as a sometimes substitute host for the Rush Limbaugh show.

Walter Williams?? Usually Jason Lewis is the main guest host. I've heard Mark Steyn, Mark Davis and Paul Smith on there but never Walter. It's either been a long time or he's a last ditch choice.

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Originally posted by The17sss Walter Williams?? Usually Jason Lewis is the main guest host. I've heard Mark Steyn, Mark Davis and Paul Smith on there but never Walter. It's either been a long time or he's a last ditch choice.

I dunno, I just found out now from his bio

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He is also occasional substitute host for the "Rush Limbaugh" show. http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/vita.html

I found it humorous a conservative economist that has hosted your man's show wrote a book trashing Reaganism. I mean what better evidence the age of Reaganism is gone could there be?

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Originally posted by Clovis I'm just wondering when the vilification of the poor and unemployed is going to subside.

Is this a joke? The only people being vilified out there are banks and investors. It's actually rather concerning that irresponsible borrowers haven't been vilified more and everyone is making excuses like "there were predatory lenders who gave them money" as though these people aren't responsible enough to understand the details about what is usually the biggest purchase of their lives.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

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Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Is this a joke? The only people being vilified out there are banks and investors. It's actually rather concerning that irresponsible borrowers haven't been vilified more and everyone is making excuses like "there were predatory lenders who gave them money" as though these people aren't responsible enough to understand the details about what is usually the biggest purchase of their lives.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about Rush Limbaugh, Shakka's signature, and every other talking head that says we are creating a welfare state in which people who don't work get a free ride.

___________________

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Clovis I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about Rush Limbaugh, Shakka's signature, and every other talking head that says we are creating a welfare state in which people who don't work get a free ride.

I'm all for extending unemployment benefits because the job market's a bitch out there. But this mortgage cramdown/principal reduction issue is a real problem for me. It's stepping over the line drawn between helping out and rewarding stupidity. No one's bailing out my stock portfolio that's lost a greater percentage of value in a year than these people's homes. Granted the numerical loss isn't as high, but that's just because I'm young and was only using income savings. Also, it pisses me off and makes me feel stupid for not putting myself into near financial distress. At least I'd own a home, rather than still renting, but that's what I get for not believing that home ownership is a right.

Also, on your class warfare points in the COR, I'm going to have to disagree. Maybe it's because I'm on more liberal websites, but some of the things that I've been reading in the past few weeks is a problem, and it's all coming from the Left. It's overly emotional, "cutting your nose off to spite your face" sorts of stuff, as I mentioned in that thread about the banker backlash.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

Groundhog Boy, this may seem off topic, but what is your favorite type and brand of alcohol?

Back on topic... details of his new tax hikes, which are basically massive, and not so much incrementally small. Revitalizing the economy relies on sucking about a trillion dollars out of it over a ten year period, starting in 2011:

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1) On people making more than $250,000: $338 billion - Bush tax cuts expire $179 billlion - eliminate itemized deduction $118 billion - capital gains tax hike Total: $636 billion/10 years 2) Businesses: $17 billion - Reinstate Superfund taxes $24 billion - tax carried-interest as income $5 billion - codify “economic substance doctrine” $61 billion - repeal LIFO $210 billion - international enforcement, reform deferral, other tax reform $4 billion - information reporting for rental payments $5.3 billion - excise tax on Gulf of Mexico oil and gas $3.4 billion - repeal expensing of tangible drilling costs $62 million - repeal deduction for tertiary injectants $49 million - repeal passive loss exception for working interests in oil and natural gas properties $13 billion - repeal manufacturing tax deduction for oil and natural gas companies $1 billion - increase to 7 years geological and geophysical amortization period for independent producers $882 million - eliminate advanced earned income tax credit Total: $353 billion/10 years

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalp...s-budget-a.html

Jerez.... you're the tax man... can you comment on the accuracy of this Ed Morrissey commentary on the tax hikes?

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Most of this is vaporware. This is a triumph of static tax analysis, which assumes that increased taxes have no effect on the amount of money available for taxation. For instance, the hike from 15% to 20% on capital-gains taxes assumes that people will invest and cash out in the same manner they do at 15%. They won’t. The fact of increasing the tax will discourage investors and encourage them to shift money out before the hike. Not only will the extra revenue vanish, but investment levels will drop, leading to job losses and less opportunity for American businesses. And what “itemized deduction” will get eliminated? All of them? Some of them? The business tax hikes are even worse. Obama will increase taxes on existing American oil production starting in 2011. Do we have massive amounts of alternative energy capacity ready to replace the energy production and usage that this will discourage? A growing economy has to have a reliable energy supply. Energy producers get hit on several fronts in this plan, and those costs will either result in lower energy production or increased cost to the consumers. Again, the expected revenues will far exceed the reality, once the depressive economic effects of these taxes kick in. The spending, unfortunately, will be all too real, which will mean huge, ballooning deficits. It’s the inevitable result of Obamanomics.

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Originally posted by The17sss Groundhog Boy, this may seem off topic, but what is your favorite type and brand of alcohol?

Maker's Mark

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul