quote:

Originally posted by Dance123 I am no expert, but wouldn't it make more sense to put the limiter/maximizer POST-fader then. Then you can still change the master volume, the maximizer will determine the end volume, ain't that so? I believe that's what the Cubase manual recommends. What do you think?

It isn't possible to do that, the masterfader is the last stage before it goes to your audiodevice.

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Originally posted by johncannons1 well all you guys semm ....

Well, if you read the thread that RANN posted above, you will learn what your answer is.
But to be short , +4dBfs is to loud, your system will probably be clipping by then.

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Funny how offtopic this all went. I really don't care about volume standards and have never heard anyone complain about major issues regarding the mixdowns and/or it's volume. Maybe I'll get to learn what benefits it could have when I'll be working in a couple of professional studios (as of next month).

Ontopic: I create a bit more headroom by EQ-ing out all I don't want to hear and all that you can't hear when the full mix is on. Just start filtering upwards/downwards until you hear it affecting the signal which you're editing. This way you remove all the frequencies which are unnecessary in the full mix. Be warned though, in less busy parts this may work counter-effective as the track could sound empty. So some automation with those filters here and there is recommended.

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quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

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Originally posted by cronodevir Heh, between my master and the actual speakers there are like 5 volume sliders. The master really becomes irrelevent in everything other than the volume of the end mix. PS I learned what I do from the thread YOU [DJ RANN] started.

mmmm, I bet your signal chain sounds nice

The master fader IS the final level (only noobs use "volume" ) of the mix. Your speakers should put out a level relative to THAT mix level. If not, how do you know whether you're accurately monitoring?

Also, why the hell would you have that many volume sliders after the master fader? And even if you do, I suggest learning about gain staging, otherwise you're not going to have a calibrated mixing setup and will probably be introducing a load of noise in to the signal path from incorrect relative stages.

@Matthjis - You;ve found way of working that works for you, and knowing your stuff, you've definitely got it down.

Any studio worth it's salt will have their monitoring system calibrated so they can mix accurately. That way you can work on any project and always have a point of reference to be able to mix that project correctly. I'm not in to rules about producing - do what works for you, but I am in to rules about setting your kit/studio up so you can use it to it's full potential and therefore produce the best you can.

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller Ontopic: I create a bit more headroom by EQ-ing out all I don't want to hear and all that you can't hear when the full mix is on. Just start filtering upwards/downwards until you hear it affecting the signal which you're editing. This way you remove all the frequencies which are unnecessary in the full mix. Be warned though, in less busy parts this may work counter-effective as the track could sound empty. So some automation with those filters here and there is recommended.

You're right, the original question was about EQing. I agree with Storyteller here, that's exactly how you create more headroom. It seems to be more important in the bass frequencies than the upper frequencies, but to ignore the upper frequencies is bad too.

The best mixes I've done in the past have ended up 'thinner' than I would like. But still overall they sound a lot better than the fuller ones. I think in general it's probably better to create a too-thin mix via EQ, and then aftewards you can consider carefully layering in something in the thin ares, automating the EQ like Storyteller suggested, or adding fx, ambience, whatever as appropriate.

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Originally posted by Storyteller Funny how offtopic this all went. I really don't care about volume standards and have never heard anyone complain about major issues regarding the mixdowns and/or it's volume. Maybe I'll get to learn what benefits it could have when I'll be working in a couple of professional studios (as of next month). Ontopic: I create a bit more headroom by EQ-ing out all I don't want to hear and all that you can't hear when the full mix is on. Just start filtering upwards/downwards until you hear it affecting the signal which you're editing. This way you remove all the frequencies which are unnecessary in the full mix. Be warned though, in less busy parts this may work counter-effective as the track could sound empty. So some automation with those filters here and there is recommended.

Agreed.

Another tip for just simply not clipping, would be to start your mix at a low enough volume, so that even when you have the full mix going, you don't clip but still have a loud mix. I do this by starting with my kickdrum at around -8 or -9db. Basing my mix around the kick drum at that level always results in my full mix being around -1 to -2db. If that's still not loud enough for you, turn up the volume on your audio interface!

I like to do this instead of lowering the master output because I feel that it helps you mix better consistently rather than just thinking that you can always lower your master output to stop your mix from clipping.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN mmmm, I bet your signal chain sounds nice The master fader IS the final level (only noobs use "volume" ) of the mix. Your speakers should put out a level relative to THAT mix level. If not, how do you know whether you're accurately monitoring? Also, why the hell would you have that many volume sliders after the master fader? And even if you do, I suggest learning about gain staging, otherwise you're not going to have a calibrated mixing setup and will probably be introducing a load of noise in to the signal path from incorrect relative stages. @Matthjis - You;ve found way of working that works for you, and knowing your stuff, you've definitely got it down. Any studio worth it's salt will have their monitoring system calibrated so they can mix accurately. That way you can work on any project and always have a point of reference to be able to mix that project correctly. I'm not in to rules about producing - do what works for you, but I am in to rules about setting your kit/studio up so you can use it to it's full potential and therefore produce the best you can.

Except I don't give a shit about mixing that much...if the song isn't clipping its ready for release, and you don't need monitors to see if its clipping or not. That said, I don't hardly ever hear anyone say anything bad about the mix in my tracks. I do have a few tracks that clip though, but no project files so I cannot fix them And they are in mp3 format.

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Originally posted by No Left Turn Agreed. Another tip for just simply not clipping, would be to start your mix at a low enough volume, so that even when you have the full mix going, you don't clip but still have a loud mix. I do this by starting with my kickdrum at around -8 or -9db. Basing my mix around the kick drum at that level always results in my full mix being around -1 to -2db. If that's still not loud enough for you, turn up the volume on your audio interface! I like to do this instead of lowering the master output because I feel that it helps you mix better consistently rather than just thinking that you can always lower your master output to stop your mix from clipping.

I hate to say this but this is not a "tip" - it's is the basis of mixing in the first place. You get your relative levels down and try to balance them to just below -0dbfs. Kicks are all different too and some tracks even in the same subgenre have completely feels based on the type and how loud the kick is in the track. Hell, some tracks just have real sub kicks which don't get near -8dbfs.

The master fader being pulled down is the very last resort to a mix engineer - there's so many other less destructive things you can do before resorting to that. I don't think anyone suggesting doing that understands what headroom and mixing is actually about.

Also, turning up the "volume" on your interface does nothing apart from make your speakers louder? What would be the point in relation to mix levels of the project?

Finally, and not to be too pedantic - the titale of this thread is actually a misnoma. You can;t create headroom as such with EQ. Headroom in it's correct sense relates to dynamic range of the mix. EQ can;t by definition create more headroom. EQ can however provide frequency separation and there provide space between elements, but again it is technically impossible to "create headroom" with EQ.

Sorry, I feel like I'm lecturing people, which I'm not trying to do but it does astound me how much misinformation there is out there about basic/101 stuff.

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Originally posted by cronodevir Except I don't give a shit about mixing that much...if the song isn't clipping its ready for release, and you don't need monitors to see if its clipping or not. That said, I don't hardly ever hear anyone say anything bad about the mix in my tracks. I do have a few tracks that clip though, but no project files so I cannot fix them And they are in mp3 format.

Fuck it. Why bother with monitoring your track at all? Just make sure no tracks are clipping on the mixer and bounce to 128k mp3. job done.

There's just slightly more of an artform to mixing than "not clipping".....

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Originally posted by DJ RANN mmmm, I bet your signal chain sounds nice The master fader IS the final level (only noobs use "volume" ) of the mix. Your speakers should put out a level relative to THAT mix level. If not, how do you know whether you're accurately monitoring? Also, why the hell would you have that many volume sliders after the master fader? And even if you do, I suggest learning about gain staging, otherwise you're not going to have a calibrated mixing setup and will probably be introducing a load of noise in to the signal path from incorrect relative stages. @Matthjis - You;ve found way of working that works for you, and knowing your stuff, you've definitely got it down. Any studio worth it's salt will have their monitoring system calibrated so they can mix accurately. That way you can work on any project and always have a point of reference to be able to mix that project correctly. I'm not in to rules about producing - do what works for you, but I am in to rules about setting your kit/studio up so you can use it to it's full potential and therefore produce the best you can.

To be honest, i think this is useless information, or at least does not make a practical difference.

The master channel is simply one of my volume controls, together with the internal sound card volume control and the mixer that goes out to the monitors.

And i change all of them as i see fit, i mean you listen to music at different volumes, so it makes sense to mix at different volumes too.

I mean everything you hear in your mix is relative to what you have heard in other tracks/mixes.

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Last edited by Subtle on Apr-08-2009 at 21:03

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Fuck it. Why bother with monitoring your track at all? Just make sure no tracks are clipping on the mixer and bounce to 128k mp3. job done. There's just slightly more of an artform to mixing than "not clipping".....

I listen to the track and watch for clips on my same speakers I used to make it. If it clips I move the overall volume [master] down to preserve dynamics. If something is clipping it has to already be a loud element in the mix, and I would have made it loud for a reason.

I don't do 128kbit either. People can either accept 450kbit or not have the song. Or they can have the 35 MB wav :P Why should I make the quality shit because everyone else does it?

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quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir I listen to the track and watch for clips on my same speakers I used to make it. If it clips I move the overall volume [master] down to preserve dynamics. If something is clipping it has to already be a loud element in the mix, and I would have made it loud for a reason.

Sorry to say it but not a good way of working at all. If your mix (master) is clipping, then change the individual elements/tracks so it doesn't cip, as the problem lies there. Treat it at the root. No need to compromise the noise floor and dynamics of the entire mix just because your levels aren't right.

Its not about levels, clipping only occurs [for me] when a synth hiccups [z3ta] and sends a spike way out of the roof. Sometimes it doesn't even happen, you hit play and its fine, hit play another time and it may spike somewhere. All of my levels are in the -20db to -5db range, not much can go any lower.

Lowering individual channels to fix something compromises the dynamics. I have a sound at a good level with the mix, but for some reason it peaks somewhere..if I lower that synth, I have to lower every single other channel I have...or i can lower the master. Lowering the master does absolutely nothing to the mix but make it quieter, there is no distortion, there is no limit or anything. And the dynamics of the track are 100% untouched.

Dynamics is the relationship of one sound to another. The master changes all sounds at the same time, dynamics are preserved.

Show me one downside in the quality of the mix that lowering the master has when there is no clipping.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist