quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN no, you learn that by experimenting and working out what sounds good. and the camelot system helps in discovering that.

isn't it strange then how perhaps the most common modulations in almost every style of music in the last 100 years are somehow not represented on the "Camelot" .

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV isn't it strange then how perhaps the most common modulations in almost every style of music in the last 100 years are somehow not represented on the "Camelot" .

many modulations do not suit styles of music where two songs are played at the same time for extended periods. and most here know that there is more in camelot than the basic = +1 -1.

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i agree with most of what you say pkc, but bear in mind that you mix trance aka music with a lot more melodies and possibilities for key clashes making everything sound shit.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN many modulations do not suit styles of music where two songs are played at the same time for extended periods. and most here know that there is more in camelot than the basic = +1 -1.

i agree but i was more so referring to modulations from song to song which i feel is what people respond to most. THe relationship between implied tonal centers is what i feel the system doesn't quite address.

Please understand that my criticism of the system does not imply it is completely useless. I suppose i have a different perspective than most here and the oversimplification of music made those tutorials slightly insulting. I am aware of the slight redundancy of saying something isn't so great without providing an aleternative so i apologize if my comments offend you or anyone else.

Last edited by RichieV on Apr-24-2009 at 20:32

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Originally posted by Domesticated You just destroyed any shred of credibility you may have had prior to entering this thread. Why do you think all the top DJs mix harmonically? Hint: it's not because they're looking for an extra challenge in their day-to-day work.

Er, No. Actually the reason is that a lot of them have very little time to "learn" their tracks, especially someone like AVB who anything and everything he can get his hands on in a given week. It means they don;t have the possibility of having a key clash even though they don't know the track, and it's even easier for them as they have assistants to do all the keying for them.

In fact recently, I've seen a couple of big DJ's bring an assistant to select their tracks for them as they;re playing.

I do feel that sometimes, HM and all the preparation that goes in to it, just bores all the life out of a the set. I like some unpredictability, a change you were not expecting (even subconsciously). I also think the sticking to HM rigidly either in preparation to or during DJ performance takes some of the spontinatity and somewhat reduces the chance for creative and unintended magic.

know the rules, sure, and try to break them but don't let them become the focus at the penalty of something amazing and acidental.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN know the rules, sure, and try to break them but don't let them become the focus at the penalty of something amazing and acidental.

So true, that said, when you have been doing it as long as I have just about everything becomes premeditated but that's just routine and experience I guess.

Also, what Richie V is saying is also actually very sound indeed as the relationship that different tracks have with each other in terms of different energies and key changes not just simple mixing in key are core factors that can actually help you deliver a great set with tons of energy. Personally I wouldn't mix these tracks with melodic content from each track playing at the same time but instead would be looking for quick change overs to state an injection of energy to the dance floor or even to just calm things down for a moment just to prepare my next onslaught if you will.
I do like things to flow for much of the set as this will actually help emphasise these types of mixes so basically both key mixing and modulation style mixes have to work hand in hand as they are dependant on each other for full effect.

When I DJ I try to think of my set as one big track with different parts, I like it to be musically sound and I want to to be pleasing to the audience. Dance floor psychology also has to be factored in as it will make or break you more so than any of the other skills mentioned in this thread.

I saw Gavin Mitchell do a mix quite a few years back now, where he took a heavy percussive/bassline driven track, let it play to the break and then mixed in another track at this point that also had a percussive breakdown so they would work well, the incomming track didn't have any melodic content at the break but when it kicked in it was a total key change and the energy it created was awesome. Low key techy track to full rich supersaws was really effective. What I am getting at is that Harmonic mixing doesn't have to be back to back mixes, there are so many avenues that can be explored.

Stu also posted a three deck mix here some years back which used both Harmonic and Modulation style mixes and in my mind should have set a bench mark for a lot of new guys to aspire to.

I think you will find that the guys who do this on a regular basis do have this awareness. I think the hard thing would be to actually put it in writing in a way that a guy who has never played infront of a crowd would understand.

Stu's guide is top notch, but we mustn't forget who his target audience is with this. There are plenty of peeps out there who are just discovering it for the first time and this will help them masses if nothing else to make the decision if it is right for them or not.
I think the biggest put off for most DJs is not the mixing in itself but the keying of the tracks as I am of the opinion that if you are to do this well you have to do it manually and forget software.
If I hadn't played instruments in the past then I might also have chosen to skip this, but as it stands I truly recognise the value of this knowledge and do apply it to what I do on many levels.

I also use Pitch Axis theory when thinking about what to mix, it opens up more possibilities and can create some interesting results.

Whilst this article in itself isn't too useful, use it as a starting point to get an idea, but be prepared to search further. Anyone looking to produce their own music would benefit from this greatly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_Axis_Theory

Just keep in mind that to use it in DJing you have to be able to pick out the scale being used which does take more practice.

Cheers
Nem

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I think I need to clarify, that tutorial is about what I (and a lot of other people) refer to as "harmonic mixing" - mixing tracks in related keys, so you can layer them together, get them to work together etc, i.e. mixing tracks that are in harmony with one another.

Personally I consider that to be different from "modulation", as to me modulation simply implies moving between keys rather than choosing them such that sections can be layered together. Key modulations aren't discussed in the tutorial (although I do mention them at the end) - the focus is what you can get away with mixing/layering together, rather than what sounds good when you shift from one key to another.

I appreciate there's quite an overlap between the two ideas and if someone would like to do a tutorial on key modulation, that'd be great. Maybe I'll do one myself at some point.

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i used to organize the keys similar to sonata form.

that was in 2001 ish .

Honestly, from someone that has a Bma in classical theory and a masters in classical composition . the only thing you really need to know(in terms of mixing to a new song) is that going up a key increases energy, going down a key decreases energy. Same with anything that has a 3rd relation.The 5th relations will give a sense of release of tension and thus a new start so that is always good for after a climactic song. Again that was incredibly oversimplifyed but i am almost certain the fact a crowd thinks you are good has more to do with the drugs they've taken.

I really think people should spend more time making the tracks they have more unique by actually doing original cuts or actually just make your own songs.Djs , and i was one so it isn't like i dont get, but they tend not often understand why they are there. The songs are fine the way they are. I appreciate the art of foreshadowing and teasing but i reallly think mixing melodies the work of a hack. Again my opinion from someone that has been out of it for a really long time.

So, I'm just reading through (some random section, link doesn't appear to link to start) and you mention how a minor and c major songs sound good together because they contain the same keys.

Have you tried this? It doesn't sound harmonic.

[edit] I see mention of how little melodic content in tracks means you can ignore lots of things. Well why bother at all?

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Last edited by Darkarbiter on Apr-26-2009 at 09:33

quote:

Originally posted by elFreak while i am not trying to stir the pot, ALL is a big word to use domesticated

Point taken.

"All" was definitely the wrong word there. "Many" would have been better.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV but i reallly think mixing melodies the work of a hack.

see, i was with you up until this point. mixing melodies sounds awesome so i dont understand your problem with it.

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Most djs can barely count an 8 bar phrase. I prefer it when they mess with the music as little as possible. unfortunately , the pretty low standards for djs does somehow reflect badly on all djs and perhaps those that are able like you are unecessarily grouped with the rest. Of course i am too old to go to clubs anymore so what does it matter.