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Originally posted by Cyrus King It wasnt ISLAM that made those achievements,.. the scripts in islam didnt encourage or teach someone to go discover alcohol or create alegbra,

yes. i think people regularly confuse a discovery or invention by someone who happens to be a muslim/christian etc, with the religion being a part of that invention or discovery. indeed, i would argue that many such advances have been made DESPITE the religions involved, not because of them.

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Originally posted by ******** get the fuck out of here.

coming from a guy who said he'd never post in this forum anymore, and whose avatar says "offline - bye," this line is particularly ironic.

I agree with Cyrus King 100%.

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"The favorite American pastime is not baseball, it's moral crusades."

I am very inclined to believe that many of the "Islamic Advancements" were made on behalf of closet dissidents of the religion and the caliphate. They kept their real beliefs to themselves, it would have been the only way they could remain alive and keep pursuing their passion. If you know the extremely structured edicts of the Quran and Hadiths, it is actually more logical to assume that people in areas of philosophy, science, art, music, etc. were feigning their "submission", and just making the best of the status quo at the time.

So yeah, pretty much what Cyrus said. But you have to realize that what may have started as an arab death cult is now a religion that is fully integrated into other ethnic cultures, and has been for a while. I understand where you are coming from since Arabic is a language that will always be the most noble in the Islamic world, and the rational opinion of linguists to say otherwise will be quickly discredited by Islamic Scholars.

History books have proven that Islam would have never grown to the grandeur it has now if it wasn't for Persia helping it.

The arabs were fighters, not administrators.

It's one of the biggest mistakes of ancient Persia to help this religion while we deprive people who believe in Persian constructed religions such as Zoroastrianism and Bahai'ism.

Most people think that i am an extremist when it comes to Israel becuase there is this assumption that i am seeing it from a middle eastern or muslim perspective.

Its actually the opposite.

although I despise the formation of Israel and its colonialist nature, i despise Islam even more for what it has done to the world, espescially my native land.

I have seen it with my own eyes, the eyes of my father and mother and the peoiple who speak about it from Iran. They HATE that religion. They would never truly worship an arab pedophile

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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

I'm not going to bother responding in any meaningful detail to the rest of your drivel, absurd conjecture, or flat out mis-statements regarding 'Islam' and the rise of modern 'civilization' Cyrus, but to address one flawed and ignorant misconception regarding the history of the scientific method, it's genesis was very much inspired by a direct belief in Islamic monotheism, which I don't expect an 'extremist' atheist like you to appreciate and pretty much deny it regardless of historical records offering no contradiction. The only and last thing regarding this tangential topic I have any interest in correcting about your ignorant blind hateful perspective is the following.

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A devout Muslim, Ibn al-Haitham believed that human beings are flawed and only God is perfect. To discover the truth about nature, he reasoned, one had to eliminate human opinion and allow the universe to speak for itself through physical experiments. "The seeker after truth is not one who studies the writings of the ancients and, following his natural disposition, puts his trust in them," he wrote, "but rather the one who suspects his faith in them and questions what he gathers from them, the one who submits to argument and demonstration."

http://www.ibnalhaytham.net/

I didn't really have you pegged as a stereo-typical PDD asshole, but since I'm not exactly a 'good' or terribly practicing Muslim, let me take the liberty to leave you with a few words based on your anti-Arab racism and anti-Islam venous bias, "fuck you too asshole." The moment you were ranting about how awesome Persians are and how much Arabs suck and accrediting pretty much all achievements of early Islamic civilization to Persians was when you made it obvious that you're just another blind nationalist full of shit.

Cheers.

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm not going to bother responding in any meaningful detail to the rest of your drivel, absurd conjecture, or flat out mis-statements regarding 'Islam' and the rise of modern 'civilization' Cyrus, but to address one flawed and ignorant misconception regarding the history of the scientific method, it's genesis was very much inspired by a direct belief in Islamic monotheism, which I don't expect an 'extremist' atheist like you to appreciate and pretty much deny it regardless of historical records offering no contradiction. The only and last thing regarding this tangential topic I have any interest in correcting about your ignorant blind hateful perspective is the following. http://www.ibnalhaytham.net/ I didn't really have you pegged as a stereo-typical PDD asshole, but since I'm not exactly a 'good' or terribly practicing Muslim, let me take the liberty to leave you with a few words based on your anti-Arab racism and anti-Islam venous bias, "fuck you too asshole." The moment you were ranting about how awesome Persians are and how much Arabs suck and accrediting pretty much all achievements of early Islamic civilization to Persians was when you made it obvious that you're just another blind nationalist full of shit. Cheers.

You are not understanding my perspective. PERSIA WAS MUCH BETTER OFF AND ON A WAAAAAAAAY BETTER COURSE in history before islam ravaged it.


Just stating the fact that a muslim created the scientific method doesnt change the fact this is rare. The teachings of islam didnt force him.. and like the other people say, must have been concluded becuase they had to say it had to do with god or whatever bullshit their caliphates wanted.. or they would have their heads chopped off.

Islam has brought MORE SHIT THAN GOOD to the middle east. Specifically persia, it destroyed what COULD HAVE BEEN

I am not racist against arabs, i just dont like the gulf arab culture and its religious creation. Im not fond of the Saudi arabian desert culture at all. Its archaic and backwards in its mentality, and Islam is essentially a cultural branch of the Saudi culture... its just the religious version of it.

its 2009 and women are not even allowed to drive there. .. oh and by the way, thats the same place where Mecca is!!! How proud muslims must be of this.

I will never ever ever accept this religion with my hand. It is evil in my eyes, it makes people into animals, tribal like and very violent. It makes them think like uneducated desert dwellers. That is why there is such a clash between modern society and this religion. On the one hand, humans want to naturally be free, while on the other, there is a religious institution barring them from fufulling this.

Im not going to get into deatil about these specifics, but this is my opinion.

Da Vinci had to say he loved christ infront of the Vatican, but im sure he was an atheist deep down.

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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Thats after the fact they invaded. Persia was doing very well and was very expressive in the arts and poetry and advances in sciences and other things before Islam came. Im sure they would have exceeded way past their islamic achievements if they were not conquered. This is just my opinion. Islam is the worst thing that happened to Persia. They have tried to remove our cultural norms like our Nowrooz tradition (even making some persians include the quran in the table that celebrates the beginning of spring), change our language, make us wear arab attire.. but in the end, it still hasnt worked. If you look at every single muslim nation, neighborhood within cities throughout the world, communitities.. they are all poor and feverently religius. Its not a coincidence that all muslim nations are ass backwards. Although i detest organized religion as a whole, Christians and Jews have evolved to look at their religion as a faith and not a way of life. Most muslims see islam as a way of life and not a faith... and thats where the problem is. At least Turkey is the first to exemplify this.. and look how good theyre doing. Theres a reason why most persians really hate arabs... it started from the days of Islam's invasion.

Perhaps they turn towards religion because they are poor, not being poor because of their religion. There are millions of utterly poor people whose only diversion from poverty is religious fervor.

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+1 to Cyrus King

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Originally posted by Krypton Perhaps they turn towards religion because they are poor, not being poor because of their religion. There are millions of utterly poor people whose only diversion from poverty is religious fervor.

thats certainly not the rule. it's not even the exception.

religiousity knows no social class or boundries, in fact it's fundamental message is to trancend that.

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Originally posted by Q5echo religiousity knows no social class or boundries, in fact it's fundamental message is to trancend that.

I didn't say it was bounded by social class. I just think poverty is more a cause of religious fervor than religious fervor is of poverty. But I'm not saying it can't be the other way around. Religious fervor can result in an oppressive state where rampant poverty is the byproduct. In the case of Iran, religious fervor results in an oppressive state whose overbearing control of society and economy results in rampant poverty.

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Originally posted by Krypton In the case of Iran, religious fervor results in an oppressive state whose overbearing control of society and economy results in rampant poverty.

...and Saudi Arabia?