So it could be a long and catchy melody... or a short one if it's REALLY catchy... or maybe one that's not even very catchy but the sample/instrument is catchy... ugh, what a bunch of crap. The definition has pretty much devolved into "I can't really explain it but I'll know when I hear it."

The only thing I've heard here that's not completely subjective is the term "hook". A riff is not the same as a hook, at all, but assuming that that's what he meant to post, then fine, I'll grant you that a lot of those examples have catchy musical hooks, and reiterate my earlier comment that these are not uncommon and have not gotten any less common.

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut So it could be a long and catchy melody... or a short one if it's REALLY catchy... or maybe one that's not even very catchy but the sample/instrument is catchy... ugh, what a bunch of crap. The definition has pretty much devolved into "I can't really explain it but I'll know when I hear it."

Its not hard to identify a big riff, nor is it hard to identify a fine looking woman, which both cannot really be explained or defined properly but its still valid.

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quote:

Originally posted by Subtle Its not hard to identify a big riff, nor is it hard to identify a fine looking woman, which both cannot really be explained or defined properly but its still valid.

I think "fineness" in women can be defined pretty easily, or at least the most common idea of "fineness."

(1) clear skin
(2) straight, normally formed teeth
(3) eyes, ears, nose, mouth all "middling" size, neither oddly small nor freakishly big, nor strangely shaped; also head proportionate to body
(4) symmetrical facial features and body
(5) ~0.7 waist to hip ratio
(6) body fat percentage somewhere from ~18 - 26 (not anorexic, not a fatty)
(7) in shape without looking "manly" or having veiny muscles
(8) all limbs and digits intact and proportionate / not deformed
(9) noticeably feminine chest and backside (preferred size varies a lot of course ;-))

IMO that is pretty close to what most people have in mind when they talk about a fine-looking woman. Of course some people have an attraction to really fat or emaciated women, or bodybuilding women, or ones with beachball breasts, or even amputees, but they are not the majority.

Now how about defining a "big riff?"

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I think "fineness" in women can be defined pretty easily, or at least the most common idea of "fineness." (1) clear skin (2) straight, normally formed teeth (3) eyes, ears, nose, mouth all "middling" size, neither oddly small nor freakishly big, nor strangely shaped; also head proportionate to body (4) symmetrical facial features and body (5) ~0.7 waist to hip ratio (6) body fat percentage somewhere from ~18 - 26 (not anorexic, not a fatty) (7) in shape without looking "manly" or having veiny muscles (8) all limbs and digits intact and proportionate / not deformed (9) noticeably feminine chest and backside (preferred size varies a lot of course ;-)) IMO that is pretty close to what most people have in mind when they talk about a fine-looking woman. Of course some people have an attraction to really fat or emaciated women, or bodybuilding women, or ones with beachball breasts, or even amputees, but they are not the majority. Now how about defining a "big riff?"

What a bunch of crap.

How about actually trying to define a big riff yourself instead of arguing against those who try to do so.

Im sure most here can identify something as a big riff when they hear it without explaining why.

The term big is not concrete so a full definition just is not possible.

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i guess the words (big riff) was a bit loose for some people but i was referring to riffs that take up most if not all the track.

i suppose producers like m.i.k.e will better describe what i mean.
alt f4, transa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5a3jB_SAEM

i guess tracks like sean tyas lift is the most modern tune like what i mean

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I grabbed the following off wikipedia's definition of "hook". It seems it won't be as easy for us to define what constitutes a hook as it is for us to define what constitutes a fine looking woman.


"
A hook is a musical idea, often a short riff, passage, or phrase, that is used in popular music to make a song appealing and to "catch the ear of the listener"[1]. The term generally applies to popular music, especially rock music, hip hop, dance music, and pop. In these genres, the hook is often found in, or consists of, the chorus. A hook can, in general, be either melodic or rhythmic, and often incorporates the main motif for a piece of music.

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One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered[2]". All definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics. A hook has been defined as a "part of a song, sometimes the title or key lyric line, that keeps recurring"[3]. Alternatively, the term has been defined as
“ the foundation of commercial songwriting, particularly hit-single writing", which varies in length from the repetition of "one note or a series of notes...[to] a lyric phrase, full lines, or an entire verse. The hook is 'what you're selling'. Though a hook can be something as insubstantial as a 'sound' (such as da doo ron ron), "[i]deally [it] should contain one or more of the following: (a) a driving, danceable rhythm; (b) a melody that stays in people's minds; (c) a lyric that furthers the dramatic action, or defines a person or place[4]. ”

The word 'hook' connotes being caught or trapped, as when a fish is hooked, and also addiction, as when one is hooked on a drug. These connotations, together with the idea of repetition, are captured in the Songwriter's Market definition of hook: "A memorable 'catch' phrase or melody line which is repeated in a song" (Kuroff 1982, p. 397). Bennett (1983) defines a hook as an "attention grabber" (pp. 30,41). The definition in Shaw (1982) is:
“ An appealing musical sequence or phrase, a bit of harmony or sound, or a rhythmic figure that grabs or hooks a listener. . . . [V]irtually no hit record is without a bit of music or words so compelling that it worms its way into one's memory and won't go away (p. 177). ”

A radio listener, passing by, so to speak, is caught or trapped by "a 'catch' phrase or melody line" and may become hooked in the addictive sense as a result of the hook's memorability and recurrence[5].

It is hard to define what features make a hook appealing to listeners. While some melodic hooks include skips of a third or more to make the line more interesting, a hook can be equally catchy by employing rhythmic syncopation or other devices. A hook may also garner attention from listeners from other factors, such as the vocal timbre or instrumentation, as in the case of the Beach Boys' use of an unusual theremin-like instrument in "Good Vibrations". Some hooks become popular without using any unusual elements. For example, in the song "Be My Baby", performed by The Ronettes, the hook consists of the words "be my baby" over the conventional I-vi-IV-V chord progression of the chorus[4].
"

One could perhaps say that a riff is big if it has a very dominant role in a track.

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I don't really see why there's so much confustion, but I think derail pretty much nailed it. Yeah, "hook" and "riff" are pretty nebulous terms, but they are often used interchangeably. Personally, I tend to use the term "riff" or "lick" to describe short filler phrases and tend to think of "hooks" as being an obvious melody (usually a synth lead in EDM) that characterizes the song and is instantly recognizable. But, I thought the OP's point was pretty obvious and interpreted it to mean just that.

A perfect example IMO is Oceanlab's "Satellite" - how many seconds of that supersaw lead do you need to hear before you recognize the song?

(anxiously awaits Oceanlab-bashers completely missing the point)

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The only thing I remember about "Satellite" is actually the vocals. :-P

Supersaw leads tend to blend together for me since they were so common for a long time. Something like the lead in Armin - "Blue Fear" stands out a lot more in my mind...

For me, if someone says "riff" I think of the main melody (wrongly or righly).

I used to really be into my "big riffs" back in about 2000 ish, and used to like this one, at 2:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC-rsrTWC8A

Does this qualify as a "big riff" ???

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quote:

Originally posted by Jimb0b Does this qualify as a "big riff" ???

Yeah, I'd call that a "big riff".