quote:

Originally posted by Wave Alchemy The best bit of advice I could give you is that if you choose / produce sounds that work extremely well together to begin with you will not need to depend on EQ half as much. Instead of shaping sounds with EQ, I will usually shape them at the sound source. The same goes for live recording. instead of fixing things with EQ, just move the microphone position or change the mic. The only time I really use EQ is to either remove unwanted low-end frequencies or to add character to a sound using a nice outboard EQ.

This.

You shouldn't really need to EQ at all to get stuff to sit right. Usually high and low passing can help stuff gel a bit better, but its not completely neccesary. If your kick/bass is sounding bad on your car system, this probably has more to do with monitoring and sound selection, as well as inexperience.

Don't look at rules you read on forums. There are no correct settings for every application. Different genres have elements that sit in different places, an anjunabeats trance kick/bass will sound different to a prog trance kick/bass combo from 1997. They'll need different approaches to EQ.

Basically, you're looking to carve each sound a certain amount of space in the EQ spectrum. Sometimes that means that kicks sit about the bass, sometimes it means that the bass sits above the kick. It depends on the track. Equally, you need to be careful about carving too much space in a mix, or the elements sound too seperated.

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My trick when lost in the mix is to A/B to your favourite track. That usually gives some aha's like, oh my kick is too boomy or my hihats too loud. And also what's been said before, if you know your listening well, there's no need for buring CD's and listen in the car all the time (I used to do that a lot as well, somehow the car systems tend to tell the truth)

Cheers

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Originally posted by derail If your kick consistently sounds wrong, spend a few weeks just putting together a kick, a simple bassline and maybe some other drum sounds. Put together 40 or 50 sets of sounds, export the loops as audio and burn it to a CD, listen to the CD in your car and make notes as to which ones sound better, which ones sound worse, and what it is that makes them sound better or worse - maybe in one the bass is too boomy, another the kick has too long a tail, another the kick doesn't have enough weight. Guaranteed there will be several among the 50 which sound significantly better than others, which will give you a new frame of reference as to where to start, in terms of building the foundation of your next few songs.

Good advice, yet I'm troubled by something.
When I say I'm obsessive I really mean it. I do at least 20 hours music week in week out. Even if I've been out all day visiting freinds as happened last Sunday and got back at 10pm, I manage to get the kids ready and put them to bed and still squeezed out 2 hours music.

I used to use hardware and make good mixes just on ordinary hifi speakers.

My new 7 month old set up has 3 types of monitors including Yamaha HS50's (not 80's). EVERYD DAY hour after hour I pound away. Some tracks I'm 300 hours+ on.

HERE'S THE KICKER - Guys on another forum give the impression they fiddle with projects when they can and some have only been doing it a year yet thier bass and kicks sound fine AND SOME HAVE ONLY HEADPHONES>!!!!!!!

Now Ive either lost the plot / developed a hearing problem or my mkonitoring enviroment is bad, BUT SO IS THE MONITORING ENVIROMENT of lots of people banging out great mixes on the other forum.

I'm at a loss really.

So can I ask this;

Do many of you here spend 3 hours every night week in week out doing this and is that the only way or must I be doing something wrong?
I cant believe others do 3 hours per night every night of the year and that in time I will learn my new monitors, because no one else on any forum every speaks of this amount of effort (apart from full time pros).

I recently bought a sample pack by 'static blue' with kicks, and he claims they need no EQ. Well when I put the tracks featruing these kicks for review people always say the kick isnt powerful enough. I often layer 2 or 3 and add a little warm distortion sometimes.
The other thing is I get a woody sound that ruins the tracks - all from the kicks. I try to eq out around the boxy woody area, and then people say the kick is too weak!

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Last edited by Richard Butler on Dec-17-2009 at 14:19

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Originally posted by Richard Butler HERE'S THE KICKER - Guys on another forum give the impression they fiddle with projects when they can and some have only been doing it a year yet thier bass and kicks sound fine AND SOME HAVE ONLY HEADPHONES>!!!!!!!

You've just described me almost 100%

Although i've been at it about 18 months.

I can't claim my kick and bassline sound fine though!

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Originally posted by Richard Butler Good advice, yet I'm troubled by something. When I say I'm obsessive I really mean it. I do at least 20 hours music week in week out. Even if I've been out all day visiting freinds as happened last Sunday and got back at 10pm, I manage to get the kids ready and put them to bed and still squeezed out 2 hours music. I used to use hardware and make good mixes just on ordinary hifi speakers. My new 7 month old set up has 3 types of monitors including Yamaha HS50's (not 80's). EVERYD DAY hour after hour I pound away. Some tracks I'm 300 hours+ on. HERE'S THE KICKER - Guys on another forum give the impression they fiddle with projects when they can and some have only been doing it a year yet thier bass and kicks sound fine AND SOME HAVE ONLY HEADPHONES>!!!!!!! Now Ive either lost the plot / developed a hearing problem or my mkonitoring enviroment is bad, BUT SO IS THE MONITORING ENVIROMENT of lots of people banging out great mixes on the other forum. I'm at a loss really. So can I ask this; Do many of you here spend 3 hours every night week in week out doing this and is that the only way or must I be doing something wrong? I cant believe others do 3 hours per night every night of the year and that in time I will learn my new monitors, because no one else on any forum every speaks of this amount of effort (apart from full time pros). I recently bought a sample pack by 'static blue' with kicks, and he claims they need no EQ. Well when I put the tracks featruing these kicks for review people always say the kick isnt powerful enough. I often layer 2 or 3 and add a little warm distortion sometimes. The other thing is I get a woody sound that ruins the tracks - all from the kicks. I try to eq out around the boxy woody area, and then people say the kick is too weak!

Firstly, don;t get too hung up on trying to over engineer things - Kit's advice about using the right sounds is spot on - you'll find that a lot of the top producers save so much time by just picking the right sounds in the first place and there's fuck all you can do about teching yourself that skill apart from long, and constant practise and burning it in to your mind when you get it right.

Secondly, don't also be under the assumption that your car system is the prefect listening situation - it might be better than your monitoring setup but it still could be leading you astray.

The HS50's IMO, while decent small monitors, lack very much in the low end representation and I'd find it somewhat lacking as a setup in terms of lo freq accuracy. Not to say you can't do it but it's just not making it that easy for you either.

You;re really going to have to learn that drawback - what a good sounding bass/kick combo sounds like on those speakers and adjust your productions accordingly.

Falck's tip is also sage advice - I was speaking to Ali (dubfire) and he said if he could offer one tip, it's that. Find productions you like and compare yours to them for every elemenet - not to say copy them - just to see if you can get the kick to sound like that, the bass to sound like that, the pads (etc), and that way you have a goal to aim for and it lets you think about analytically.

As for sounds, eq is a tool, not a building brick. When you make or hear a preset on s synth, you can tell very easily what that sound contains (in terms of timbre, frequency spread, harmonics etc.) so when you think about combining it with your other sounds it becomes quite easy to know whether it will clash or fit nicely.

There's a reason the 808/909 sounds were so popular; they work with so many other sounds, they are in some respects very neutral.

My advice is go back to the root of your issues, pick your sounds very carefully (solo them with a spectrum analyzer if needed) and build a track based on sounds fitting together - after that the tolls you have (pan, eq, compression, etc.) gives them space to shine, both collectively and separately.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler HERE'S THE KICKER - Guys on another forum give the impression they fiddle with projects when they can and some have only been doing it a year yet thier bass and kicks sound fine AND SOME HAVE ONLY HEADPHONES>!!!!!!! Now Ive either lost the plot / developed a hearing problem or my mkonitoring enviroment is bad, BUT SO IS THE MONITORING ENVIROMENT of lots of people banging out great mixes on the other forum.

I'm going to give you some advice that will surely get me hammered: try using a good pair of mixing headphones and see what happens. I used to be as anti-headphone as the rest, until my son came along and, given my work/family life, I had no other option given that I do all my music work after the family goes to sleep, and my son's room is not too far from the studio. My mixes actually improved noticeably after I started to mix primarily with headphones (BeyerDynamics DT880s) to do the majority of my mixing, and relying heavily on my monitors (HS80Ms) to check my mixes when the family is awake or out of the house - particularly for stereo imaging issues. I do this because my room is terrible and, with all the carpet and wood, tends to suck up the low frequencies (i.e., like one large bass trap), so my naturally tendency is to overcompensate for the bass, which ends up being too boomy on other systems. Now, that's the opposite problem that you and most others seem to have, but headphones solved that problem for me. I also rely HEAVILY on: (1) reference tracks and (2) utilizing good mixing practices (reasonable levels, frequent breaks, alert, careful attention to panning to avoid extremes [esp. w/headphones]).

The other bit of advice I'd offer is to stop worrying about what people with less experience or less equipment are able to achieve - that seems to be a common theme with your posts. I take it from your post here that you're a bit older and have other priorities (e.g., family, career?), so you're probably not going to be able to keep up with those who are younger, have better hearing, more passionate, have more time/fewer priorities, spend more time listening to EDM, or whatever. I'm in the same boat - most people here are much younger than me and have far less experience, but many/most are probably better EDM producers for all those reasons.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler ...in time I will learn my new monitors, because no one else on any forum every speaks of this amount of effort (apart from full time pros).

Two words: REFERENCE TRACKS!!! Listen to other music that you are familiar with on your monitors as often as possible before, during, and after mixing. This applies to headphones as well.

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quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik I'm going to give you some advice that will surely get me hammered: try using a good pair of mixing headphones and see what happens.

This is good advice.

I've said it in another thread already but a decent pair of headphones IS better than a so-so pair of monitors in a poor room.

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I agree 100% with cryophonik, 80% of my initial/conceptual production is done with headphones (between 10:00 PM - 1:00 AM).

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Don't know why you would get hammered Cryo. I use both headphones and monitors and I think it's wreck less not to use as many reference sources as you can find. I use two pairs of headphones and my HS80's - Seems to do the trick. Although I'm far from being a great engineer, I can do a good job sometimes. Kind of a hit or miss thing for me at this point but getting better. I know when I'm in over my head and ask for help from friends frequently. Always have my "go-to" guy who does amazing masters but I try to use him as little as possible as I don't want to burn him out. He's got the empirical labs dual distressors and lord are they good.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler Do many of you here spend 3 hours every night week in week out doing this and is that the only way or must I be doing something wrong? I cant believe others do 3 hours per night every night of the year and that in time I will learn my new monitors, because no one else on any forum every speaks of this amount of effort (apart from full time pros).

3 hours really isn't that much time. On the other hand, perhaps you just have bad ears. But honestly , what ever problem you have, it probably isn't your equipment. I personally think your actual musical ideas and sound design rather plain and should just enjoy making music because i just don't think you will be doing EDM for a living in a really really long time. Stop obsessing and spend time with your kids. Sorry to get all simon cowell on you.