quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik I think the answers given thus far, while certainly valid, also exemplify the biggest problem with EDM and what really separates the amateurs from the pros in my opinion - too much emphasis on production techniques and not enough emphasis on: THE MUSIC!!! I've said it a million times and I probably sound like a broken record...errr...scratched CD by now, but the people listening to, reacting to, and buying music aren't impressed that you know how to use an EQ or a multi-band compressor if you can't write a hook to save your life.

Yes

and also

But


your music is VERY heavily focused on melody, vocals and instrumental performances. This is a good thing.

The other side of EDM is very much about the production and mixing. I know a lot of people moan about the loudness war etc etc blah blah but I actually like the in your face sound in certain genres. It suits it well.

I think both are equally important in EDM

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quote:

Originally posted by tehlord I think both are equally important in EDM

You are also right man, because idea and quality goes together.

Cheers

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quote:

Originally posted by tehlord your music is VERY heavily focused on melody, vocals and instrumental performances. This is a good thing.

While that may be true, I wasn't really referring to myself. And, yes, I agree that both production and musicality are both important but that's exactly where the problem lies IMO - the ability and gear/software required to make a technically sound production has become so readily available that there is often very little difference in quality between a professionally produced track and a very good hobbyist track.

The same can't be said for the musical aspect of it, though. Spend an hour listening to ASOT or something, then go listen to songs posted by hobbyists and you'll probably hear a huge difference in the quality of the music - most pro tracks have hooks that are catchy and memorable, employ a lot of expression, have good arrangements, etc. (complemented by killer productions), whereas most amateur tracks are lacking in the composition/arrangement department. That's largely reflected in exactly what is going on in these forums and in this very thread (nobody even mentioned music until page 2!) - everybody wants to talk about synths, gear, software, DAWs, techniques, etc., but hardly anybody talks about what goes into a making a killer hook/melody/harmony and, when they do, the thread typically dissolves into a discussion of whether or not music theory is necessary.

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Last edited by cryophonik on Jan-05-2010 at 19:29

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik While that may be true, I wasn't really referring to myself. And, yes, I agree that both production and musicality are both important but that's exactly where the problem lies IMO - the ability and gear/software required to make a technically sound production has become so readily available that there is often very little difference in quality between a professionally produced track and a very good hobbyist track. The same can't be said for the musical aspect of it, though. Spend an hour listening to ASOT or something, then go listen to songs posted by hobbyists and you'll probably hear a huge difference in the quality of the music - most pro tracks have hooks that are catchy and memorable, employ a lot of expression, have good arrangements, etc. (complemented by killer productions), whereas most amateur tracks are lacking in the composition/arrangement department. That's largely reflected in exactly what is going on in these forums and in this very thread (nobody even mentioned music until page 2!) - everybody wants to talk about synths, gear, software, DAWs, techniques, etc., but hardly anybody talks about what goes into a making a killer hook/melody/harmony and, when they do, the thread typically dissolves into a discussion of whether or not music theory is necessary.

you are spot on.


Just incase you're wondering, i'm not just disagreeing with everything you say for the heck of it at the moment

I'm in a wierd position with music theory. I played piano up to grade 8 about 20 years ago then forgot everything I knew. I now claim that for me at least musical theory isn't that important and I tend to just play, or program what I hear in my head. The question I now ask myself is how much of that theory that was drummed into my head still remains and guides the notes that appear in my head as if from nowhere?

My other love is cooking (having been a chef for a while)

The similarity between the two hobbies is astounding sometimes.

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quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik but hardly anybody talks about what goes into a making a killer hook/melody/harmony

So do you have any insight or tips on how to do this? I've been trying to absorb as much knowledge as I can in learning EDM production, and I've actually been able to learn quite a bit recently from forums, videos, and books/mags.

But I haven't heard that much about hooks/melody/harmony besides the question/answer thing.

Cheers!

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quote:

Originally posted by cammaxwell So do you have any insight or tips on how to do this?

Well, that's easily a semester's worth of question there and without completely derailing the thread, I'd say that having a good sense of scales/modes certainly helps, as does chord progressions and understanding harmonic vs. non-harmonic notes, etc. Also, listen to melodies that you like and decipher what makes them great. Listen to much more than just the notes - listen for expression, dynamics, etc. Look for variations on that theme (or create your own for your own song). Also, listen to what's going on around the melody (e.g., harmony, rhythms).

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quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Well, that's easily a semester's worth of question there and without completely derailing the thread, I'd say that having a good sense of scales/modes certainly helps, as does chord progressions and understanding harmonic vs. non-harmonic notes, etc. Also, listen to melodies that you like and decipher what makes them great. Listen to much more than just the notes - listen for expression, dynamics, etc. Look for variations on that theme (or create your own for your own song). Also, listen to what's going on around the melody (e.g., harmony, rhythms).

This time i'll agree completely.

The very basics I was taught when I learned the piano are still what I think I draw on now. Glancing at the keyboard looking for a next potential chord if I don't just hear it often brings up a winner, or the inspiration for a winner.

I'm not so convinced that the theory behind it all is necessary.

A few piano/guitar/whatever lessons would be invaluable.

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learn to play piano. it will help u make better melodies and chord-transitions, and also get a better idea on how a song can be devided into different parts and how they interact, piano is the most solid stand alone instrument imo and its about the only instrument i know about which can make a whole track alone without getting boring. and if u somehow get tired of edm u can still use your piano-skills the rest of your life for great things. while making the perfect kick will only get you that far.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik (nobody even mentioned music until page 2!)

A bit off topic, but the page numbers are dependant on the setting you have in your profile (edit options - Default posts per thread). You can set it to as many as 40 posts per page, so you don't have to click backwards and forwards in threads.

On topic, I'd like to reiterate what Cryo said about focussing on the music. When I was a kid I loved music, and didn't have any idea about "production values". In truth, production values didn't matter to me back then, and today the song still matters more to me than the production. Sounds change with the times, but great melodies will last a lot longer.

Obviously, production is very important. You want to do the best you can in bringing your music across to the listener. On this point, I'd recommend always focussing on what you need to improve - constantly compare your songs to songs you think sound fantastic - compare the kick, the bass, pads, leads, percs, delays, reverb, effectiveness of buildups, and on and on.

Always look to improve the areas that are holding your music back the most.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik but the people listening to, reacting to, and buying music aren't impressed that you know how to use an EQ or a multi-band compressor if you can't write a hook to save your life.

i really really wish you were right. but you're not that's why the whole scene fcking sux.