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What?

quote:

Originally posted by system-7 +18 plus should be the requirement for all massives.

ITA

quote:

Originally posted by system-7 +18 plus should be the requirement for all massives.

I don't quite understand the 18+ limit. If you are going to make massives 18+ you might as well make them 21+ to prevent 18-20 year olds drinking alcohol illegally.

In my experience, people who are concerned with ecstasy use at raves/clubs usually aren't concerned with underage drinking, likely because alcohol can be purchased legally (although not by people under 21 of course) and it is more socially acceptable. Both are abused at raves and clubs, but alcohol causes way more fights. I would rather be surrounded by 10 people who are rolling than 10 drunks.

(I'm not saying you are OK with underage drinking... these are just some of my thoughts on the matter.)

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I am the opiate of the masses.

My mixes:
****Favorite Trance Songs of Early 2012 Mix(July 2012)****
****Love & Loneliness Vocal Trance Classics Mix (July 2012)****

Apeattack, i like your point of view and you are really good with words. Please write to the newspapers

quote:

Originally posted by Tosh Apeattack, i like your point of view and you are really good with words. Please write to the newspapers

On the few occasions I have written to a newspaper nothing came from it. Writing would make me feel better, but the words likely will fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes?).

___________________
I am the opiate of the masses.

My mixes:
****Favorite Trance Songs of Early 2012 Mix(July 2012)****
****Love & Loneliness Vocal Trance Classics Mix (July 2012)****

quote:

Originally posted by Apeattack I don't quite understand the 18+ limit.

It's easy to understand. When 15 year old girls wear lingerie, take 'ecstasy' (usually a mix of mdma, meth and who knows what else), act like porn stars, let strangers grind on them, etc, it's a problem. At least when it's 18+ everyone there is an adult.

.

___________________
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

---JFK---

A fight is not won by one punch or kick. Either learn to endure or hire a bodyguard.

Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash into his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life. Do not be concerned with escaping safely - lay your life before him.

---Bruce Lee---

quote:

Originally posted by mattW It's easy to understand. When 15 year old girls wear lingerie, take 'ecstasy' (usually a mix of mdma, meth and who knows what else), act like porn stars, let strangers grind on them, etc, it's a problem. At least when it's 18+ everyone there is an adult. .

Stop killing the fun Matt, rave isn't much of a rave without those kids and toddlers in lingerie... we need them and all those kandi kids sitting on the floor doing lightshows... besides, that's what rave is all about, no?

quote:

Originally posted by mattW It's easy to understand. When 15 year old girls wear lingerie, take 'ecstasy' (usually a mix of mdma, meth and who knows what else), act like porn stars, let strangers grind on them, etc, it's a problem. At least when it's 18+ everyone there is an adult.

The concept that a person becomes an adult after 18 years is completely culturally defined. I recognize that it 'feels' worse to see a 15 year old doing those things versus an 18 year old because I grew up in the US too, but I wanted to avoid the issues that naturally arise when using the word 'adult' by focusing only on the law regarding the use of drugs/alcohol. The law states that anyone under 21 cannot drink alcohol, but 18-20 year olds at a 18+ massive will just as much access to alcohol as at an all ages massive.

My point is that setting the age limit of massives at 18+ (vs all ages) will have some impact on overall illegal drug use because people in the 17- age group will not be in attendance (this assumes most people in the 17- age group will use drugs/alcohol). However, setting the bar at 18+ probably will have little impact on illegal drug/alcohol use for those in the 18-20 age group.

Setting the age limit at 21+ will greatly limit overall illegal drug use because everyone can drink legally, although from my experience 21+ folks at a 21+ event likely will be consuming just as much drugs/alcohol as if they were at an all ages massive. I went to Giant Bonaventure (21+) for NYE and most of these 'adults' were drunk or rolling. The only difference between a massive like TAO and the Giant event is that attendees at the Giant event were more dressed up, on average.

If you want to eliminate the greatest amount of illegal drug use, which includes underage drinking, make the massives 21+, not 18+. Personally, I am a bit torn about whether to make massives all ages or 21+ for reasons discussed ad nauseum in various threads on this forum.

___________________
I am the opiate of the masses.

My mixes:
****Favorite Trance Songs of Early 2012 Mix(July 2012)****
****Love & Loneliness Vocal Trance Classics Mix (July 2012)****

quote:

Originally posted by able.h Stop killing the fun Matt, rave isn't much of a rave without those kids and toddlers in lingerie... we need them and all those kandi kids sitting on the floor doing lightshows... besides, that's what rave is all about, no?

...lol, better?

___________________
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

---JFK---

A fight is not won by one punch or kick. Either learn to endure or hire a bodyguard.

Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash into his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life. Do not be concerned with escaping safely - lay your life before him.

---Bruce Lee---

Whether or not being 18 arbitrarily makes you an adult, it is still the legal age of when an American becomes an adult. 16 year olds can't even make medical decisions without parental consent. 18+ just makes the most sense. 21+ would be nice, but you don't need alcohol or drugs to enjoy the music. If an adult (18+) wants to attend the show, they should be allowed to.

quote:

Originally posted by trancension Whether or not being 18 arbitrarily makes you an adult, it is still the legal age of when an American becomes an adult. 16 year olds can't even make medical decisions without parental consent.

Yes, in this country we set 18 as the age at which you are considered an 'adult.' You can join the military, vote, etc... once you turn 18. But what really matters for the purposes of this discussion is that you cannot consume alcohol legally until you are 21. Just being an adult does not entitle you to the right to drink alcohol (something I disagree with, but hey, it's the law).

When people state that massives should be 18+ it often is implied that people younger than that are always drugged out (probably true, but so are the adults) and setting the bar at 18 is one way of getting rid of a lot of the illegal drug use. To me, it is inconsistent for these people to be ok with 18+ massives (where 18-20 year olds likely will be consuming alcohol illegally) but not all age massives.

If the major concern is that 17- kids are being exposed to the drug/alcohol/provocative dress culture of massives, then that is a good reason to set the bar at 18+. That is why we have movie ratings. But if the concern is specifically over drug abuse by minors, which I feel is often the case in these discussions (people always hatin' on the Daniel Kandi kids and light shows), then setting the bar at 21+ is more consistent.

quote:

21+ would be nice, but you don't need alcohol or drugs to enjoy the music. If an adult (18+) wants to attend the show, they should be allowed to.

You could make the argument that a 17 year old should be allowed to attend the massive as long as he doesn't do drugs/alcohol. I imagine you would agree with this but still are in favor of setting the bar at 18+ because realistically we know the ratio of drunk/high people to sober people is like 10:1. It is rare for someone to go a massive entirely sober, at least in my experience. Just look at the EDC thread where people got quite upset at the (now repealed) 7 drink limit for VIPs.

An afterthought...
You are saying once we turn 18 we are designated adults by the state and should be allowed to attend any event we wish. But why not make all clubs 18+? Because club owners know if undercover cops find underage drinking they will be fined or shut down. The only reason massive promoters do not really care about underage drinking or drug use is because they know they will not get shut down. At 1am on the Coliseum floor during EDC any undercover cop will have 10 people within arms reach who are high. If cops start handing out massive fines for every person who is high or drinking illegally I imagine these events would quickly become 21+.

___________________
I am the opiate of the masses.

My mixes:
****Favorite Trance Songs of Early 2012 Mix(July 2012)****
****Love & Loneliness Vocal Trance Classics Mix (July 2012)****