Bob Dylan is folk rock, maybe blues, but not country western. I'm pretty sure tehlord is talking about stuff like Toby Keith.

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Originally posted by tehlord Point me in the direction of a C&W song that transcends any boundaries and i'll agree.

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quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips

I've never really got on with it, but i'll give you that one.

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Originally posted by floyd741 Not a terrible idea but, if you want to give brutal feedback just do it in Music Producer's Promotion. I see no reason why there should be a special thread if there is already an entire forum.

I think that is the problem though. I don't think ANYONE gives 100% honest feedback in the music promotion section. We are all too nice, and will always be as positive as possible. I'm not saying that no one gives any criticism because they do but it will always be sugar coated.

Comments like, "nice tune, bass is a bit weak and the percs could be with more variation but overall nice work. Well done."

Had that same tune been on beatport, we most likely would have dismissed it instantly because in all honesty, its generic, boring and forgettable.

Many of us who post in the music promotion section do so when we have a tune on there so we give feedback to others to then receive feedback ourselves. There is nothing wrong with this but no one wants to be too harsh on other people's work from fear of getting a bashing in return. Instead we try to be as constructive as possible, but always with a positive slant.

Some of you may not agree with this, but I read some of the glowing feedback of someones track and I just do not believe that the feedback would be the same if it was a track on beatport by an artist no one knew.

Some people in the music promotion are particularly bad for always giving rave reviews and feedback to others. I'm not mentioning any names but I'm sure some of you will have witnessed this yourselves. The problem with those who are always give over the top, positive feedback is their opinion loses all credibility.

Personally I do try to be honest with my criticism and suggestions but I'd never tell someone that I think their tune is boring and generic, even if deep down this is what I felt, so in this respect I'm as guilty as anyone else.

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Last edited by G-Con on Jul-10-2010 at 09:14

quote:

Originally posted by G-Con I think that is the problem though. I don't think ANYONE gives 100% honest feedback in the music promotion section. We are all too nice, and will always be as positive as possible. I'm not saying that no one gives any criticism because they do but it will always be sugar coated. Comments like, "nice tune, bass is a bit weak and the percs could be with more variation but overall nice work. Well done." Had that same tune been on beatport, we most likely would have dismissed it instantly because in all honesty, its generic, boring and forgettable. Many of us who post in the music promotion section do so when we have a tune on there so we give feedback to others to then receive feedback ourselves. There is nothing wrong with this but no one wants to be too harsh on other people's work from fear of getting a bashing in return. Instead we try to be as constructive as possible, but always with a positive slant. Some of you may not agree with this, but I read some of the glowing feedback of someones track and I just do not believe that the feedback would be the same if it was a track on beatport by an artist no one knew. Some people in the music promotion are particularly bad for always giving rave reviews and feedback to others. I'm not mentioning any names but I'm sure some of you will have witnessed this yourselves. The problem with those who are always give over the top, positive feedback is their opinion loses all credibility. Personally I do try to be honest with my criticism and suggestions but I'd never tell someone that I think their tune is boring and generic, even if deep down this is what I felt, so in this respect I'm as guilty as anyone else.

Yep, you put it much better than I did. This is what I'm getting at.

In the end when it comes to buying, we quickly filter out most tracks. It's this spirit of REALITY CHECK that if present on a gruseome feedback thread, that would be useful for me, so I truly can progress without being deluded

Most people seem against the idea of such a thread, but maybe have a think on it, I reckon it could be useful and actualy fun in a sadistic sort of way.

Taste will of course colour it but none the less I'd still be prepared to give it a bash and see how it goes.

******POINT - it needs to be here in this section as the feedback section per see is too remote and disconnected and I'd say not as 'REAL' as to represent our habits in the REAL world of beatport or audiojelly - in other words the normal feedback section comes with too many vested critiques and not enough truth******

I agree that some posters are very very positive about a lot of tracks, but this would mean they must spend hundreds of $ per week on beatport as they like so many tracks, but in reality when it COMES TO ACTUALY BUYING, ACTUALLY MAKING A REAL WORLD CHOICE, MOST OF THOSE TRACKS THEY SUPPOSEDLY RAVED ABOUT THEY WOULD NOT BUY, so thier feedback must be in this sense not a true distilation of thier core reaction to music.

So many posters have issued the comment in general that MOST music realeased is sh1te, yet this sentiment is not translated into the forum feedback section here today.

Love

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quote:

Originally posted by G-Con I think that is the problem though. I don't think ANYONE gives 100% honest feedback in the music promotion section. We are all too nice, and will always be as positive as possible. I'm not saying that no one gives any criticism because they do but it will always be sugar coated.

While this problem is easy to see in the MP forum, it stands to reason that the original intent was for people to provide honest feedback. I can remember a time when that forum seemed to be a lot more active and you did, sometimes, get honest feedback.

So let's hypothetically say that (a) I was wild about this idea myself and (b) I could convince Swamper to go for it - neither of which I can claim confidently right now - the question is, how would you prevent the exact same thing from happening to the "feedback" forum?

The same social contract is still implied; you review mine, I'll review yours. You give me a good/honest review, I'll give you a good/honest review. It's just human nature, it's how people think. The only way I know of to break out of this pattern is if the feedback system is completely anonymous and automated, which means it generally has to be simplified into something as basic as a thumbs-up or thumbs-down vote. This is how many Q&A sites work, but it's not entirely reliable for subjective discussions, and in any event, I think that's too drastic a change to implement here.

The location or title of the forum really doesn't matter. What matters is how people are incentivized to interact. What incentives are there for people to take significant amounts of their time to provide critical reviews of tracks (especially when criticism does not tend to be well-received)?

Do any of you have a way around these problems?

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It does suck to receive harsh feedback on something that has taken weeks to perfectionise. It is however fun to come back with something even better, and I think that is preferable to stagnating.

I'm not sure of the need of a dedicated thread for such critisism, but I'd gladly give it a shot!

I'm quite aware of the errors in most of my tracks since they're all more than a couple of months old. It would however be cool to hear what ideas other people have.

As mentioned, imagine you're listening to it on Beatport, or something along those lines:

Epic Robot by Fjern

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I don't think it's very fair to say it's wrong for giving positive feedback to something in the MP forum that you wouldn't give to it if it were on Beatport. I imagine most people get pissed hearing subpar music on Beatport because of the idea that it doesn't deserve to be released amongst legitimately good tracks. In the MP forum it's usually just hobbyists posting for the sake of showing off what they did in their free time, and in that environment it's pretty fair to say "Hey, nice job, but [insert faults here], nice work though". In that situation encouragement is probably for the best.

Like digi said you can say this new section might fall under the same social contract but people posting there would be doing so for completely different reasons than they would for posting in the MP forum. Instead of getting people to hear their track and get a few comments about it, this section would be pure criticism. And I don't think the people posting there would expect anything less from everyone else, so that would probably inhibit them from trying to dish out praise on the off chance they might get it back. That negates the whole point of the forum and I'm pretty sure most people here are mature enough to realize that.

I don't see the need for a whole new subforum - just ask for brutal honesty when you post the song. If there's something concerning your track that you're not 100% happy with or just unsure of, point it out in your thread and ask for specific feedback on it, how to improve it, or toss it, etc.

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quote:

Originally posted by Kysora In the MP forum it's usually just hobbyists posting for the sake of showing off what they did in their free time, and in that environment it's pretty fair to say "Hey, nice job, but [insert faults here], nice work though". In that situation encouragement is probably for the best.

I disagree. I do this purely as a hobby and have no intention of trying to become successful with it in the pro sense. BUT I want people to critic my tracks as they would any other tune. The idea that they will critique it in a way that takes into consideration my amateur status is patronising beyond belief.

That's like saying "Yeah its good for a amateur bedroom producer, but crap compared to my favourite pro tracks. But well done you!"

I seriously doubt that anyone on here would like the thought of people reviewing their work in this way.

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quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik I don't see the need for a whole new subforum - just ask for brutal honesty when you post the song. If there's something concerning your track that you're not 100% happy with or just unsure of, point it out in your thread and ask for specific feedback on it, how to improve it, or toss it, etc.

yeah this is what im saying and to the op if you are inspiring to be a top flight producer then just keep on comparing notes with the big guns until you think your tunes are up there.

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