"To the verity of my second argument opposing its supposed conjecture: semantics. Your argument is bogged by the assertion of prevalent simplicity. Music is simple, ergo, you have developed a device, protocol, algorithm, et al which contends with it, simply, ergo..."

Not sure what you mean. The overlay chart http://www.djprince.no/table2.htm) was introduced by Stuart Soroka of Harmonic Keys Magazine (Key West, Florida) in the mid-1980s. Harmonic Keys developed the idea of harmonic mixing (see http://www.camelotsound.com/History.aspx.

All that I did was devise a system (Camelot Wheel) that made the overlay chart easier to use by eliminating the need to MEMORIZE the perfect fourth, perfect fifth, and relative major/minor of each key. Rather than memorizing 24 sets of compatible keys, as required by the Overlay Chart, a user could identify compatible combinations almost instantly.

Since then, simplicity HAS become relatively prevalent in popular music. Some producers, such as Dr. Dre, had no music education. Unlike in earlier decades, many tracks today have no melody or harmonic structure.

So what EXACTLY are you accusing me of? Making an existing system simpler to use? Working with professional musicians for almost 25 years to compile a database which is more accurate than key detection software? Or something else?

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I suppose my issue is that you are pandering to musical idiots. You are giving a tool that makes them think less, learn less and ultimately dilute the already sparse talent , knowledge , motivation musicians/djs these days seem to exude.

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Originally posted by Mad for Brad I suppose my issue is that you are pandering to musical idiots. You are giving a tool that makes them think less, learn less and ultimately dilute the already sparse talent , knowledge , motivation musicians/djs these days seem to exude.

Not exactly. "Musical idiots" is an arrogant and unjustified insult, because music education is not required for success as a DJ. It is nice to have, but not essential. Dr. Dre succeeded as an artist/producer without music education. I would also bet that some hit EDM was produced without any music education.

On the other hand, making them "think less and learn less" is true. I believe that's the definition of making something "easier."

I also disagree with your contention that simplifying the Overlay Chart dilutes "the already sparse talent, knowledge, motivation musicians/djs these days seem to exude." The Camelot Wheel has no effect upon musicians, but it introduces a completely new concept, music theory, to mixers who otherwise would never know anything about it. Musician DJs already mix harmonically on record. This increases the market significantly. It also provides a pathway to music education for remixing/mashup artists.

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Shut up the lot of you.


Harmonic Mixing 'by numbers' isn't perfect, but it's a good start for people with little musical knowledge.

Yes it would be great if every DJ was at Grade 8 Theory* standard, but that's never going to happen. So would you prefer it if every DJ clashed all of their mixes, or if most of them sounded quite nice because they're using a little chart?

There will always be scope for DJs with more musical knowledge to make even more out of the tracks they're playing with, rather than everyone being perfect. I don't see that as a bad thing... it gives those who are willing to put more time in a way to stand out.


Mixing using charts (either Camelot numbers or the standard key names) does make a lot of assumptions. And anyone using these systems should be aware of these.


See? It wasn't that hard. Now run along and play nicely.


* That might just be a UK thing... over here, Grade 8 is the highest level of music exam you can take in an instrument and you can take it in musical theory as well.

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Stu Cox |

grade 8 is a pretty much the prerequisite for University level so it is actually a very low level. I assume you talking about the conservatory method.

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Originally posted by Mad for Brad grade 8 is a pretty much the prerequisite for University level so it is actually a very low level. I assume you talking about the conservatory method.

It was just an example based on anyone who might learn musical theory, whether they're going through to study it at college and uni or not...

Either way, the vast majority of DJs wouldn't even know enough to pass Grade 1 Theory. Which was more my point, rather than you indirectly bragging about how much of a music theory guru you are - Unless you honestly expect DJs to have a university-standard knowledge of music theory?

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Stu Cox |

kind of sad. Djs are technically musicians and should learn about music just like any other musician. Maybe people would start respecting them.

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Originally posted by Mad for Brad kind of sad. Djs are technically musicians and should learn about music just like any other musician. Maybe people would start respecting them.

I agree 100% that ideally, this is the way it should be. However, the reality is that 90% of the DJ's audience are drunk crackheads looking for a good party, and therefore, the bar for musical knowledge gets set very low.

I would say "some" DJ's are musicians, but most are nothing but traveling jukeboxes.

I've been using the famous wheel for quite a while and I must say I stumbled upon certain tracks combinations I wouldn't have otherwhise.
On the other hand, I want to take it a step further and improve my fading musical theory knowledge (used to play the violin as a child). In a similar thread people talked about a HM thread that went more deeply into different types of harmonic mixing, yet I'm unable to find it, could anyone post a link to it please?

Hope this helps: http://www.camelotsound.com/Advanced.aspx

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camelot_sound : nice work on the system. my mixes are waaay smoother since I started using your system many years ago. Have picked up a bit of music theory on the way too.

Thanks for the kind words.

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