quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad Very often , it is the things that are barely audible that can drastically change the groove of a rhythmic pattern. A drummer, for example does things called ghost notes that are played on the snare. They aren't really meant to be heard but rather felt. Not to say they are there if you have a good ear and listen carefully but you know what i'm saying.

Agreed


I found the biggest factor in getting my hats to sound better was to simply turn them down.

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Well I got to admit for once it feels good to actually be talking about music vs arguing with everyone lol.

I want to ask about delaying the claps though. Do most people position the claps off the kick by the same amount because thats something I specifically tend to not do?
If I position a clap a bit after the 2nd kick, I will often position the 4th clap a bit in front of the 4th kick, I'm wondering if this does more negative things for drive than positive?

I do it because it seems to create a bit of tension between the claps, which in turn creates a sort of tension between the kicks, but now I'm think to just delay them both after the kick.

And as far as completely omitting hats that hit on the kick, if I do that I wind up with a very forced and artificial type of pumping sound, vs a steady flowing drive. I like pumping, but if theres ANY sidechaining at all going on with the bass, than you wind up with both percussion and bass that is dipping out on the kick, and it can sound cheesy rather quick imo. I like the idea the M4B mentioned because its closer to what I already do. But I will absolutely dip the velocities of those hats as the kick hits, and I personally like the way that sounds better. It gives the effect that the kicks are pushing further down into the mix when the hit, and seems to add more depth than taking them out completely.
I didn't do it in this track though I guess I just didn't get around to it.

And I think what tehlord said is important too. The single most important thing I notice that actually changes in my workflow is year after year I tend to mix at lower and lower levels. I've never peaked my kicks at -8dbs before, its always been -4 to -6, but having them that much lower allows me to fill out the mix the way I really want. I notice the same for hats, I use to peak them at -10 and now I peak them around -12 to -14, even though I can't hear them as good, I can add a lot more complex tinier sounds that don't wind up just suffocating the track, and can sometimes definitely make the track seem bigger than it is.
But I still think its obviously relative to your skills and what you can pull off. I also notice some artists will have sounds that sound nothing like typical percussion we are use to, and its almost like it didn't even matter what sounds they chose but they just KNEW how to create intense grooves in the first place which seems to almost allow any sound to work. So I definitely have work to do in how I make my grooves as well.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox Well I got to admit for once it feels good to actually be talking about music vs arguing with everyone lol. I want to ask about delaying the claps though. Do most people position the claps off the kick by the same amount because thats something I specifically tend to not do? If I position a clap a bit after the 2nd kick, I will often position the 4th clap a bit in front of the 4th kick, I'm wondering if this does more negative things for drive than positive? I do it because it seems to create a bit of tension between the claps, which in turn creates a sort of tension between the kicks, but now I'm think to just delay them both after the kick. And as far as completely omitting hats that hit on the kick, if I do that I wind up with a very forced and artificial type of pumping sound, vs a steady flowing drive. I like pumping, but if theres ANY sidechaining at all going on with the bass, than you wind up with both percussion and bass that is dipping out on the kick, and it can sound cheesy rather quick imo. I like the idea the M4B mentioned because its closer to what I already do. But I will absolutely dip the velocities of those hats as the kick hits, and I personally like the way that sounds better. It gives the effect that the kicks are pushing further down into the mix when the hit, and seems to add more depth than taking them out completely. I didn't do it in this track though I guess I just didn't get around to it. And I think what tehlord said is important too. The single most important thing I notice that actually changes in my workflow is year after year I tend to mix at lower and lower levels. I've never peaked my kicks at -8dbs before, its always been -4 to -6, but having them that much lower allows me to fill out the mix the way I really want. I notice the same for hats, I use to peak them at -10 and now I peak them around -12 to -14, even though I can't hear them as good, I can add a lot more complex tinier sounds that don't wind up just suffocating the track, and can sometimes definitely make the track seem bigger than it is. But I still think its obviously relative to your skills and what you can pull off. I also notice some artists will have sounds that sound nothing like typical percussion we are use to, and its almost like it didn't even matter what sounds they chose but they just KNEW how to create intense grooves in the first place which seems to almost allow any sound to work. So I definitely have work to do in how I make my grooves as well.

I personnaly move the clap back or leave it right on the beat. With some claps it depends, some have a preclap which you can obviously hear and some dont. Preclaps need to be pushed back.

as far as high hats go on the kick, I never do that, Most kicks have hats on them that sit just right.

And try using a lot of loops and really slicing them up. It can add a lot of groove

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I've been playing with just turning off the grid and positioning the notes by hand. It seems to work pretty well at getting a slightly wonky rhythm going on.

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quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad I disagree with the hihat not happening on the kick. I think this is actually crucial to give the kick a little high end to make it cut.

Yes! this can be really tough to get right.

quote:

Originally posted by sako487 I personnaly move the clap back or leave it right on the beat. With some claps it depends, some have a preclap which you can obviously hear and some dont. Preclaps need to be pushed back.

I have noticed a trend thats been going on where the clap is positioned right before the kick, personally i dont fancy it much.. but i hear it being done quite often.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips I've been playing with just turning off the grid and positioning the notes by hand. It seems to work pretty well at getting a slightly wonky rhythm going on.

Swing like this makes such a huge impact to the sound. Its one of these things im trying to do these days, as i have found myself all to often quantizing stuff too tight, using too many elements to compensate, when all that is needed is some good swing.
All kinds of music where a real life drummer/instrumentalist is used has this effect. very powerful.

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swing is still quantizing and not really human at all. Quantizing isn't the issue, it is the grid you are using to quantize that counts. There are many human made groove templates to use to add some interesting rhythmical tension over a solid 4 beat kick drum.

Ok new track!

Just for anyone whos bored although the concept was similar I changed a lot of things around. It doesn't sound anything like the previous sample although it was the same project so you may notice some similarities still.
I kept the cheesy perc rolls but changed the samples, took off distortion completely, lowered the reverb, dropped the mid/hi end boosts on many of the hats (it oddly sounds clearer with those frequencies dropped now, although the samples are also different too so not a great comparison), and finally put a decent bassline in there.

The kick still has too much mid frequency, I was planning on changing it but I was focused on so much other stuff I completely forgot.

Theres a lead line that sounds strangely familiar, almost like I've heard it in another track somewhere. I don't really like it that much though so I'll be changing it completely. But I just needed to drop something after the bass.

I'm much happier with this example, my kicks still need a lot of work, and the bass although much better is still generic. Its 3 layers, one passing through a subtle phaser. But the typical saw/noise bass with a lp envelope and hi pass filter to bring it in.

Theres also a timing issue after the first 8 bars you can hear it right before the clap drops in I gotta fix that too. But this could be the first track I actually wind up finishing in a long time. I haven't really been pleased at all with recent tracks but a lot of the tips I've got on here are finally starting to pay off.

Keeping the levels down and trying to stay away from equalizer boosts are hard, as well as not overdoing the compression too. But so far I'm definitely noticing improvements, so I thank everyone A LOT its really appreciated.

link

Listening on laptop speakers (terrible, I know), and it sounds like the highs clash a bit when the crash comes in. Might just be the speakers though.

Other than that it sounds great, I really like the bassline and the percussion has some nice energy to it.

Everywhere the track goes after the melody starts coming in just sounds boring, though, the melody doesn't capture my attention at all and doesn't seem to lead the track anywhere I'd want to be.

I'll give it a proper listen once I unpack my shit, moving is a pain in the ass.

quote:

Originally posted by Kysora Listening on laptop speakers (terrible, I know), and it sounds like the highs clash a bit when the crash comes in. Might just be the speakers though. Other than that it sounds great, I really like the bassline and the percussion has some nice energy to it. Everywhere the track goes after the melody starts coming in just sounds boring, though, the melody doesn't capture my attention at all and doesn't seem to lead the track anywhere I'd want to be. I'll give it a proper listen once I unpack my shit, moving is a pain in the ass.

Yeh the lead is terrible I really wanna do something totally different, but it would have took too long and I wound up putting the 3rd melody I came up with lol. I usually will change a melody about 20-30 times before it sounds the way I want. Which is another reason I never seem to finish tracks. But I do like some of the melodies I come up with.
My main focus was the percussion and bass this time so now I definitely feel like I can move on and finish the build up/drop. I'm gonna sit down and play around with a different melody tommorow, and I wanted to do something that drives the bass a bit more too (like a bass swell every other bar). But definitely try to hear it on better speakers if you can. If not I'm just gonna bump a new edit tommorow anyway.

Thanks for the feedback!

Last edited by DJ Robby Rox on Aug-20-2010 at 06:18

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox Yeh the lead is terrible I really wanna do something totally different, but it would have took too long and I wound up putting the 3rd melody I came up with lol. I usually will change a melody about 20-30 times before it sounds the way I want. Which is another reason I never seem to finish tracks. But I do like some of the melodies I come up with. My main focus was the percussion and bass this time so now I definitely feel like I can move on and finish the build up/drop. I'm gonna sit down and play around with a different melody tommorow, and I wanted to do something that drives the bass a bit more too (like a bass swell every other bar). But definitely try to hear it on better speakers if you can. If not I'm just gonna bump a new edit tommorow anyway. Thanks for the feedback!

sounds like your track is highpassed, i was waiting for the bass to kick in but it never happened, rest of the track is ok but you may have a bit too much going on in it, my 2c

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Didn't read the whole thread, and don't know if I'm being irrelevant but since I've been so excited about sequencing drums for the past few days, I've got to say; I usually make my drums by just placing the kicks in place and then find a break that sounds good and have it playing with the kicks. After that I start making my own percussion on top of it and try mimicing the break. After I think I'm satisfied with the drums I listen to it without the break and make changes all the way to the point I have a grooving bassline to go with the drums.

Without any layering my drums usually occupy about 10-15 mixer tracks. Don't know if it's much.

What comes to "humanizing" the drums, I just usually shift them back and forth, having - or + delay on every drum except the kick.

Oh yeah and tomtoms get me drooling all over the keyboard, it's so nice tuning them and all.
God I'm gonna have to leave work early today.

Benz & MD - Turning the curve