has anyone using the argument that gods made people do this or that, killing people etc etc ever taken into consideration the fact that God made Adam and Eve (going by the KJV) and gave them everything they needed. His first commandment to them was what? (only the original untouched KJV will say it as it is)

He said to them be Fruitful and multiply which in non shakespearean english means fuck and have fun (having sex was not why adam and eve left the garden)

God made man in his own image and in the image of god he made them ..... male and female

what does that say?

God is a trinity composed of himself, the holy spirit (his wife) and jesus his son.

God gave man his own choice and always has. He told him not to eat from the tree of good and evil because "if ye do she shall become as gods, knowing good and evil"

So what does he do, eve gives it to him to eat from and he did. There's mans quest for knowledge power and our inherent path of self destruction. (which we're doing just fine on)

Man has always made our own choices in history. For fucks sake leave god out of it

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Last edited by Tranzmit on Aug-17-2002 at 11:15

If you watch the film Dogma, you'll see the truth.

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Yes i did watch dogma and i saw a film trying to make a religious statement and failing miserably (i still enjoyed it's tongue in cheek humour though)

I've never taken hollywood movies to seriously though mate and i'd suggest the same for you

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as a reaction on some post before me...

free will is a very complex system of chemicals in your brain, which is unique for every person because every brain is different, in my opinion.

God is an explanation for unexplanationable things, like endless universe, time, and such things. I can't understand these things, no one can (if someone thinks he does, i'd be more than curious to hear!), but it's too simple in my opinion to just say that there was a god who did that. Evolution is proved, and when there are rocks found that are 4,5 billion years old, I can't believe some ramshackle(sorry, that was the only word i could think of...) story about the earth to be 6000 years old, and that's even the most wide explanation of the time overlapping in the bible.

I think the domination of men, and mammals in common, has to do with the meteor hitting the earth 65 million years ago. If that didn't happen, mammals would only maybe be dominant in the polar area's. Except for the bodytemparature, reptiles are superiour creatures.
Let's say there would be a little flying saucer visiting earth, wanting to observe the most influental creature, they'd study the insect (arthropods). Men is only the dominant specie in a certain way. We don't see that we aren't better then other creatures, only because our brain developed in a huge tempo around 30000 years ago. It's just the extra nerve connections which made us be selfaware. And it's not even sure we're the only one's with selfawareness, we just want to think so...

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I am a catholic. I don't take the bible literally because allot i feel is written as messages of how life should be lived (as mentioned earlier by someone i think?)
every religion is based upon faith. It doesn't evolve around scientific evidence and stuff like that. Faith is what religion is based around.
I believe that evolution did happen, but why couldn't have god started the big bang for us to be created?
Free will gives you the right to think what you think now! When you die, you'l go to heaven (b'coz "god is a dj" and he spins trance :P) and he wont judge you straight on the fact of whether you 'believed' in him or not, he would judge you on the life that you lived.
p.s. i find it quite funny how alot of athiests use evolution as an excuse, but if you look on the web (dont know what site) but there is a $1m reward for one person to give scientific evidence of evolution. THe link "in theory" has been talked about, but it is still unproven. BTW if i got allot of stuff wrong with this don't flame me too much if im wrong, im not stufying philosophy lol!. As the phrase goes, 'everyone is entitled to their opinion'

I'm an atheist too
my grandma used to tell me about religious things but I hated dat bullshit...she prays to God every night before she goes bed...so what?notthing happens life goes on...

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quote:

Originally posted by Tranzmit God gave man his own choice and always has. He told him not to eat from the tree of good and evil because "if ye do she shall become as gods, knowing good and evil" So what does he do, eve gives it to him to eat from and he did. There's mans quest for knowledge power and our inherent path of self destruction. (which we're doing just fine on) Man has always made our own choices in history. For fucks sake leave god out of it

I'll have to disagree with you here. If u read my post above, man has never had any real choices. In fact, in following the belief that Gid was omnipotent, God knew we would eat from the tree even before He warned us.

quote:

Originally posted by Elysium I'll have to disagree with you here. If u read my post above, man has never had any real choices. In fact, in following the belief that Gid was omnipotent, God knew we would eat from the tree even before He warned us.

Just because God is "all knowing all seeing etc" doesn't mean free will is nonexistent. It just means that every possibility for an action/reaction at a specific point in time can and does happen, just in another universe/dimension/time or place. So you still have free will to choose what you will/won't do and both of those will happen, just not in your own personal experience, they will happen somewhere else. For me I think everything that can happen, will and does happen. I've read a bit into how physics explains things with "Hyperspace" and bits from other books and that's how I think it all works out. Plus I still believe in a God, but religion is not for me (I'm just apart of one to make my parents/grandparents happy). It's too stifling for me...

quote:

Originally posted by Endlesswave Just because God is "all knowing all seeing etc" doesn't mean free will is nonexistent. It just means that every possibility for an action/reaction at a specific point in time can and does happen, just in another universe/dimension/time or place. So you still have free will to choose what you will/won't do and both of those will happen, just not in your own personal experience, they will happen somewhere else. For me I think everything that can happen, will and does happen. I've read a bit into how physics explains things with "Hyperspace" and bits from other books and that's how I think it all works out. Plus I still believe in a God, but religion is not for me (I'm just apart of one to make my parents/grandparents happy). It's too stifling for me...

Sorry again i have to disagree. If God is able to see our actions before we even decide them then our destiny is already pre-determined. How can God know what we will choose even before we do? Though it might seem like we are making free choices, if God can already see what we will do and act, our choices are already etched in stone. If Free Will is truly a viable thing, then God cannot truly know our choices before we make them. However, the definition of God or a God is omnipotence. So i don't think its truly possible for a God not to be all knowing all seeing. Free will is a fallacy if u believe in the omnipotence of God. I don't know if my argument is getting across the right way. But, i hope this clarifies it a little better.

I understand you, Elysium, and what you say is true, but I can't believe in it bacause of the explanation in my last post before this one.

quote:

p.s. i find it quite funny how alot of athiests use evolution as an excuse, but if you look on the web (dont know what site) but there is a $1m reward for one person to give scientific evidence of evolution. THe link "in theory" has been talked about, but it is still unproven

Evolution is proved in my opinion. examples like the darwin-birds on the galapagos islands, molecular science and genetics made clear that we are all linked together, though the recentcy (is that a word?) varies. It's at least definately more logical than what the bible claims, about the earth being 6000 year old, but that i also wrote in my last post, so read that again. Why wouldn't it be God who started the big bang? because that would be unlogical. why would you do that if you have so much power that you can make a big bang, why not then make a planet and create life on it, without species that evolve, like written in the bible, it certainly would seem better to me, he would have a lot more control about it.

Why would god wait untill 12.8 billion years ago to create a big bang if he had existed forever, always, eternal??

that i'd like to know...

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quote:

Originally posted by DjSuez I understand you, Elysium, and what you say is true, but I can't believe in it bacause of the explanation in my last post before this one. Evolution is proved in my opinion. examples like the darwin-birds on the galapagos islands, molecular science and genetics made clear that we are all linked together, though the recentcy (is that a word?) varies. It's at least definately more logical than what the bible claims, about the earth being 6000 year old, but that i also wrote in my last post, so read that again. Why wouldn't it be God who started the big bang? because that would be unlogical. why would you do that if you have so much power that you can make a big bang, why not then make a planet and create life on it, without species that evolve, like written in the bible, it certainly would seem better to me, he would have a lot more control about it. Why would god wait untill 12.8 billion years ago to create a big bang if he had existed forever, always, eternal?? that i'd like to know...

Its funny that u mention the Big Bang. In the same book i was reading about omnipotence vs free will, there was a article concerning a a a famous Harvard astrologer(i forget his name). Anyhow, he was able to trace the origin of the unverse back to a single point in time. It was not the big bang as many had thought. I'll have to dig up the article but, i remember that this thoery had been tested and proven as far as my memory goes.

quote:

Originally posted by DjSuez It's at least definately more logical than what the bible claims, about the earth being 6000 year old, but that i also wrote in my last post, so read that again.

ok, one point about people thinking the earth is 600,000,00 years old. Why could God not have created the earth to be that old? He did not create adam and eve as little babies. The earth could APPEAR to us as 600,000,00 years old, but in actuality, has only been created 7,000 years ago. How do we know that dinausors actually roamed the earth? that would be strange to see dinausors and people living at the same time. perhapse God created the earth with a HISTORY that never actually happend, and littered the stones with dinausor fossils.

quote:

Why would god wait untill 12.8 billion years ago to create a big bang if he had existed forever, always, eternal?? that i'd like to know...

i think it's impossible for us to fully understand this, because God lives outside the boundries of time. DOnt ask me how this works, because i dont know. i think this also relates to "free will" and God knowing what we do before we do it, because he doesnt think in the same fasion we do. How can humans think without the concept of time? Impossible.

plus, where does it say that God has only created the Earth, and this universe?

for all we know, he could have created MANY MANY different races, civilizations, anything you can imagine, and we would never come in contact with them because they don't exist in the same stratum as we do. like angels living in heaven. God surely created the angels, but do we have any information on this? I don't think so. And I don't think that people turn into angels when we die.. they must be their own "race".