quote:

Originally posted by drewfactor I can't believe what people are saying in here. The anti-American sentiment sickens me. Do you think that we would live the way we do and reap all the benefits of living in our very comfy western lives if it were not for the US? I highly doubt it. America did not involve itself in Vietnam for the sake of itself but to protect it from the evil grip of communism. America helped the muslims (Albanians) who were being slaughtered by Milosevic's ethnic cleansing. Some people need to see things from another point of view than the GLobe and Mail.

I agree that some of the anti-american attitudes are a bit overboard, but please don't use Vietnam as an example, as it is clear you do not know the facts.

"What must be remembered here is that for anyone to claim that Ho Chi Minh's primary interest was the promotion and spread of communism is to deny his entire life's work. It is a lie, pure and simple. And the people at the topmost echelon of our government who were spreading this lie knew better. "

The history is very complicated, involving French Occupation, the British and the Chinese. Communism was just a reason used to justify the war effort. Ho Chi Minh originally had no ties to Moscow or Peiking, and only asked for diplomatic recognition from them after the French occupation of Vietnam starting getting US support.

"Note that during 1945 to 1946, Ho Chi Minh had written at least eight letters to Truman and the State Department, asking for America's help in winning Vietnam's independence from the French. Ho wrote that world peace was being endangered by French efforts to reconquer Indochina and he requested that the four powers (US, USSR, China and Great Britain) intervene in order to mediate a fair settlement and bring the Indochinese issue before the United Nations."

If the US really supported Vietnam, they would've stepped in when the Vietnamese were trying to gain independance from the French, but chose instead to ignore Ho Chi Minh's letters to Washington, so they would not upset the French.

Vietnam right now is a communist country. There is hardly anything "evil" about it. :/

It is obvious that you've become a victim of selective media, and the government's mastery of what they want you to know. There is very important history that the news always fail to report, as proven in your lack of knowledge about the history of Albanians, and the Vietnamese.

___________________
jimtran.net

Last edited by quddha on Sep-14-2002 at 05:25

quote:

Originally posted by quddha It is obvious that you've become a victim of selective media, and the government's mastery of what they want you to know. There is very important history that the news always fail to report, as proven in your lack of knowledge about the history of Albanians, and the Vietnamese.

I agree... A lot of people here are blinded by the media that is presented to them. Learn the details before assuming that the crap on the boob tube is fact. Open your mind... not just your eyes...


btw... good post Jazz

quote:

Originally posted by drewfactor I can't believe what people are saying in here. The anti-American sentiment sickens me. Do you think that we would live the way we do and reap all the benefits of living in our very comfy western lives if it were not for the US? I highly doubt it. America did not involve itself in Vietnam for the sake of itself but to protect it from the evil grip of communism. America helped the muslims (Albanians) who were being slaughtered by Milosevic's ethnic cleansing. Some people need to see things from another point of view than the GLobe and Mail.

look, i'm not going to get into a long debate about this online... i'm involved in enough online discussions re: politics/issues already, i really don't have enough time or energy to get into another one... you can label me anti-american and assume that's my justification for what i say... it allows you to ignore the issues and facts that i raise and not confront them... there are many things that the united states has done over the years that most people are largely unaware of... these are not "conspiracy theories" or "anti-american propaganda"... they are actual historical events, if you don't believe me look them up for yourself and do some research... read some books about these issues...

i listed them in my first email so that anyone who doubts these things can look them up for themselves, but i'll list some of them again: vietnam/cambodia, east timor, chile, nicaragua... i'm guessing you might not know much about east timor, chile or nicaragua, most people don't - i didn't until i made a conscious effort to learn more about political theory and political history... most americans don't know about these events and this is their own country, their own government that is involved... that is very telling when you think about it... before i made this conscious effort i probably had a somewhat similar perception as yours of events and issues...

many people have a perception of what vietnam was all about, and they have a basic knowledge of it... but there is a lot more you probably don't know... as more classified information is being declassified it is becoming increasingly evident that the US had the opportunity to end the vietnam war in 1968 under the Johnson administration... 1968 was however, also the year of the US presidential elections and the republican candidate, richard nixon, was fearful that a successful conclusion to the peace talks would damage his own chances of winning due to the anti-war climate that was developing in the US... kissinger was involved in the 1968 negotiations, however he was not part of the government at that time and was looking for a way to secure a place in the future government... kissinger was able to warn presidential candidate nixon that the united states was proposing a bombing halt of north vietnam... nixon in turn counselled the south vietnamese government to reject these terms, because if he won the presidential election a better deal would be offered... so when johnson ordered a bombing halt on the 31st October, the south vietnamese (the U.S. ally) responded by boycotting talks... nixon was duly elected and kissinger was promoted within his administration...

the nixon administration continued the vietnam war for another 5 years before finalizing a peace agreement, which was almost exactly the same as the agreement offered in 1968... during that period tens of thousands of innocent vietnamese and cambodians, as well as thousands of troops from both sides were needlessly killed due to U.S. political games...

also during the vietnam war, the U.S. illegally bombed cambodia - a non participant & neutral side during the war - because north vietnamese troops had moved into cambodia... the U.S. had no legal right to do this, it was against international law, so they conducted these bombings of cambodia in secret... without the approval of congress, violating the U.S. constitution... the carpet bombings and military campaign in cambodia killed thousands of innocent people and set off a chain of events that plunged the country into absolute chaos and resulted in somewhere between 1 - 2 million cambodian deaths (the killing fields which you may have heard of)... it's a very complicated chain of events that i'm not going to go into here, but there is an abundance of information available...

when i talk about Vietnam, i am not arguing regarding the morality and ethics of the whole conflict - but for specific events within the vietnam war that are immoral and unethical... just because the U.S. decided to involve themselves in this war did not give them the right to conduct this war in an illegal manner that needlessly killed thousands of innocent people...

despite what you may believe, i'm not "anti-american"... i'm pro morality and pro ethics... i apply the same moral code to any and all countries, as should be the case... no country should be allowed to ignore human rights, ethical standards and international law, no excuses... i don't believe that the U.S. deserved to be attacked on 9/11, and i don't believe that the victims of 9/11 were to blame... i do believe that we need to be better informed about the reality of recent political history so that we are able to form rational, logical and informed opinions on our current situation...

Last edited by Jazz on Sep-14-2002 at 10:17

p.s. for anyone looking to learn a bit more about the issues within the american society and ideology (not so much foreign policy), i highly recommend the book "stupid white men" by michael moore... it has been (and still is) on the best seller list in both the U.S. and Canada for along time... it's an easy, quick, humorous read...

or if you're too lazy or too busy to pick up the book, consider checking out his new movie "bowling for columbine"... opens Oct.11 i believe... also humorous, and i'm pretty sure most would enjoy it... not your typical boring, educational movie at all...

thanx for your morning history lesson mate, and yea i think i'll go catch the flick when it's up next month.

I didn't expect to get such a reaction from anyone. That's alright...I appreciate noone bashing me personally, because I can't say my personal opinions are totally in line with the predominant attitude of the people on this board. At the same time, I admit I probably don't know nearly as much about the facts of historical conflicts involving the US and other countries as many of you who have made comments. The thing is, I am finding that more and more it is almost trendy to hate America, and so many people have little to no reason to support it. Many people on this board know the issues and can state why they disagree with American foreign policy etc...I'm not talking about you. It's this sheer ignorant hatred for the states among young people, especially students, that I see people buying into...in much the same way people seem to think I buy into CNN or pro-American propaganda. Trust me I don't. My comments about the Albanians and Viet Nam weren't really thought through, I admit, but it provided a nice contrast alot of the other ignorant comments in here. I agree that the US has not been perfect regarding their foreign policy or human rights and they can be very self centered as a nation. So, should we hate Britain or France because of their brutal colonial history? I don't think so. I just think that people go overboard with their hatred for America and it seems to be a trendy thing to do...like.."hey look at me, I'm anti-establishment, fuck America and everything it stands for..." Ok I'm just being facetious(sp?)...but does anyone even agree with me a bit?

Yes it is true. Some people are like that, and just hate America for being America, and think its become the cool thing to do if you're not American, and then they find reasons to hate them. But that's backwards. You have to become informed on the issues, and make your decision based off that.

However, I don't have HATE, just alot of criticism. The last thing we need in this world is hate.

In reality, I'm just really scared of a large-scale conflict erupting, and more terrorist actions hitting North American soil. I actually think there are better solutions than war, I may be dreaming...

___________________
jimtran.net

I dont hate america....the people are nice..but its goevernment is immature and BS.

___________________
www.elkdee.com
Soundcloud sampler: www.soundcloud.com/elkdee

http://www.reuters.com/news_article...StoryID=1440192

that's all i have to say....


as for the sept. 11th victims well my condolences go out to the frinds and family of them. since something so horrible like that or anyting horrible for that matter should happen to innocent people.

___________________
"When your spirit is floating down that tunnel towards the light, you know what's behind the light? It's not God, it's me. And im gonna kick your poncey soul all the way back down the tunnel till you choke on your own fucked up ribs. NOW, wake the fuck up!"

quote:

In an interview with Newsweek magazine done on Monday, the Nobel Peace laureate criticized the United States for acting unilaterally and undermining the United Nations as a forum for settling international disputes. He said U.S. hardline policies aimed to please American oil and arms companies. "If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace." ...snip... Mandela said Bush and his staunchest ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, had given no evidence to back their weapons claims against Iraq. "But what we know is that Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody talks about that," Mandela said. Mandela said while it was not his personal view, others believed there was an element of racism behind Washington's unilateral policies. "Many people say quietly, but they don't have the courage to stand up and say publicly, that when there were white (U.N.) secretaries-general you didn't find this question of the United States and Britain going out of the United Nations," he said. "But now that you've had black secretaries-general like...Kofi Annan, they do not respect the United Nations. They have contempt for it," Mandela added.

pearls of wisdom, to say the least...

i second that...he has quoted what a lot of people around that world have thought/talked about...

___________________
"When your spirit is floating down that tunnel towards the light, you know what's behind the light? It's not God, it's me. And im gonna kick your poncey soul all the way back down the tunnel till you choke on your own fucked up ribs. NOW, wake the fuck up!"

i think america is too hasty and overzealous when it comes to dishing out revenge for what happened on 9/11. you'd think the government might be a bit more objective about all this, but they seem bent on war.

blood for blood. that seems to be what america wants so badly. just look at this whole fiasco with maj. harry schmidt dropping a bomb on 4 canadians. why? that is a question he must answer before the courts. but it seems to me that he and his co-pilot were overzealous, trigger-happy cowboys just itching to bomb something. shoot first, ask questions later. america is so hungry for revenge, that some of the people just aren't thinking straight.

this war on iraq is EXACTLY the kind of foreign policy that the rest of the world frowns upon, and no doubt gives another reason for terrorists carry out atrocities like the one on september 11.

by no means am i giving excuses for what the terrorists did that day. i don't think violence is the answer to anything. that applies to america as well.

___________________