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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J There's a hell of a lot of people who are anti-Islamic, and empirically speaking a lot of those people are blatantly racist.

Anti-Islamic and racist are two completely different things and are not related at all

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And since we even have the buzzword "Islamophobia"

There is no such thing as Islamophobia. Bigotry and racism exist, of course—and they are evils that all well-intentioned people must oppose. And prejudice against Muslims or Arabs, purely because of the accident of their birth, is despicable. But like all religions, Islam is a system of ideas and practices. And it is not a form of bigotry or racism to observe that the specific tenets of the faith pose a special threat to civil society. Nor is it a sign of intolerance to notice when people are simply not being honest about what they and their co-religionists believe.

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The whole idea of a "race" is fairly arbitrary and constructed, and it could easily be argued that the cultural formulation of a given "race" revolves as much around culture and religion as it does physical appearance.

There may be sociologists who choose to redefine words to their own purpose, in which case we have a simple semantic disagreement. I have a right to choose to interpret “race” (and hence “racism”) according to the dictionary definition: “A limited group of people descended from a common ancestor”. Sociologists are entitled to redefine words in technical senses that they find useful, but they are not entitled to impose their new definitions on those of us who prefer common or dictionary usage.

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Which is why a lot of people use "racist" quite loosely to describe many forms of bigotry and discrimination against those with differing cultural/ethnic backgrounds.

Again, no one is discriminating against people with different cultural/ethnic backgrounds. But specifically against a religion. In this case the religion of Islam which arguably is the greatest man made force for evil in the world today.

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So triumphantly bellowing "Ah, but Islam is a religion not a race, therefore you must be projecting and I win I win I win!" is a most flimsy and sophist rebuke.

See this is exactly the problem. you are accusing people of hiding their racism behind the fact that Islam is a religion. There is no evidence for that.

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Originally posted by de+ There is no such thing as Islamophobia.

Because a picture is worth a thousand words, here's a little something for you...



For Allah's sake, stop reading simplistic neo-atheist literature that depicts the world as "the awesome battleground of enlightened rationalists against big bad religion & friends" and go get some proper education on this issue. Just as there's valid criticism of Islam, there's also anti-Muslim bigotry. Just as there are critics of Islam that are truly concerned for other peoples' well-being, there are racists among their lot (so saying racism has nothing to do whatsoever with islamophobia is about as naïve as you can get). Stop trying to purge atheism of all that is bad and rotten just so you can make your case - atheism/irreligiosity/criticism of religion is just as likely to be used for harm as any other human belief.

I don't doubt for a minute you're well-intentioned, but ignorance is precisely what makes good intentions go wrong.

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Originally posted by Dj Skez Look, all these bigots and racist white motherfukers only talk that shit in front of their friends or in a setting or facility where they feel safe. I used to hear that bullshit in my old job when I used to live in the Midwest in redneck Michigan. None of those pussies got balls to call a black man a ******, I've seen it said once in the Bronx, and seen this white boy get stomped the fuck out with a bunch of his teeth on the pavement.I know its different everywhere else but you talk that shit like in certain cities like NY, Chicago, Detroit, Philly and so on.. You can get killed and that's real talk.

White people doing a blackface routine is pretty racist imo.

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Originally posted by Psyshell For anyone who hasn't been around a few years, I'd like to point out that PKC used to be a big fan of this guy. It seems like so far he's been a bit too embarssed to post however .

is there a reason you feel compelled to mention me in every post? if you HAD been paying the level of attention then that you clearly are now, you would remember my criticism of pat ages ago.

good luck with the stalking.

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Originally posted by de+ There may be sociologists who choose to redefine words to their own purpose, in which case we have a simple semantic disagreement. I have a right to choose to interpret “race” (and hence “racism”) according to the dictionary definition: “A limited group of people descended from a common ancestor”. Sociologists are entitled to redefine words in technical senses that they find useful, but they are not entitled to impose their new definitions on those of us who prefer common or dictionary usage.

This from the dictionary:

quote:

race [reys] Show IPA noun any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race

Your "right" to interpret a word does not force it to mean something when other people use it differently to you. You are shoving words in their mouth to try and prove a limp-wristed point.

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Again, no one is discriminating against people with different cultural/ethnic backgrounds.

You might not be, but to say "no one is" is excusing a huge amount of outright bigots, which is an extremely troubling stance. You might have honourable intentions but you're also giving a free-pass to people who are openly racist (see: Lira's photo and the millions of people it represents), which makes you an accessory to intolerance.

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See this is exactly the problem. you are accusing people of hiding their racism behind the fact that Islam is a religion. There is no evidence for that.

No I'm not. You seem incapable of processing the idea that this whole discourse is split into many different views and positions on both sides, and that inability in itself is dangerous.

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Originally posted by Dj Skez None of those pussies got balls to call a black man a ******, I've seen it said once in the Bronx, and seen this white boy get stomped the fuck out with a bunch of his teeth on the pavement.I know its different everywhere else but you talk that shit like in certain cities like NY, Chicago, Detroit, Philly and so on.. You can get killed and that's real talk.

It's one thing to be secretly racist and to not say it at all to a black man ever which is a bit cowardly. However how would saying it to a bunch of black guys in the bronx who are likely to beat you up be productive ever? Sounds like someone trying to start a race riot to me. I mean I think we all know how Serb rallies in Kosovo turned out. Definitely not great for everyone getting along. People being honest about their views and open (and then that causing a debate which is likely to lead to stupid and backwards opinions being debated away) is very different to a situation that is very likely to result in violence and further hatred.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN is there a reason you feel compelled to mention me in every post? if you HAD been paying the level of attention then that you clearly are now, you would remember my criticism of pat ages ago.

Looking past the obvious case of massive case of being hypocritical I'd be interested to see your criticism of him as I think it'd be an interesting addition to this thread.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J This from the dictionary: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race Your "right" to interpret a word does not force it to mean something when other people use it differently to you. You are shoving words in their mouth to try and prove a limp-wristed point.

That's a very selective subsection of the dictionary. It's clear in general use that there's either a genetic/heriditary definition of race, a cultural definition of race or something in between. It's pretty common for people to stubbornly refuse to accept other definitions of words they use even when there's obviously multiple though. I'd expect if someone's going to go into a detailed discussion like de+ seems to want to that he'd be flexible enough to deal with semantics however especially when he makes a thread about a video that focuses on it heavily.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J No I'm not. You seem incapable of processing the idea that this whole discourse is split into many different views and positions on both sides, and that inability in itself is dangerous.

+1. Please gain an ability to hold multiple definitions of a word at the same time when attempting to debate something like this. I know personally I have at least 7 definitions of the word liberal.

For instance, to be very verbose with what I said earlier: When pat says
""progressive" is what happens when a liberal goes bad"
He's using probably a definition close to what they mean by liberal in American politics. As in someone who's perhaps politically correct and overall close in views socially to the democrats or the left wing of the democrats. Perhaps they want harsher rules against bullying in school etc.

"But there's nothing liberal or decent about the "progressive" mentality"
Here Pat is clearly using a different definition of the term liberal. He means liberal as in closer to a classical liberal (in social terms at least) and closer to liberalism as in philosophical thought. People who want most of all free and open debate and generally have views similar to say John Stuart Mill in some subjects.

One obvious difference is that the second meaning of liberal would theoretically almost always be in favour of free speech whereas the first meaning of the word liberal may be more likely to sometimes be in favour of laws against hate speech.

These are clearly not the same meaning and the fact that you don't understand that sortof possibility really isn't great for your understanding of the subject. It's worth pointing out that there's similarly multiple different ways of definining race which you seem to be incapable of understanding as well. I do somewhat sympathise however though as if someone's going to call me something pejorative I'd very much like to have everyone observing and them have an exact definition that I conform to precisely. Again, it's pretty silly to conjure up images of kkk/general racists just because someone dislikes a religion for specific logical* reasons but not any ethnicities.

*Even if those logical reasons are somewhat invalid when thought about more. For example, if someone said "I dislike Islam because Muslims work for below minimum wage because of it's tolerance of slavery and they're going to run me out of business" that's a pretty silly argument but it's at least not a purely emotional one.

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Last edited by Psyshell on Feb-12-2014 at 04:58

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Originally posted by Psyshell Looking past the obvious case of massive case of being hypocritical I'd be interested to see your criticism of him as I think it'd be an interesting addition to this thread.

virtually all of my posts have been in direct response to comments you've made referencing me.

my criticism is that he's not funny anymore.

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Originally posted by Psyshell That's a very selective subsection of the dictionary. It's clear in general use that there's either a genetic/heriditary definition of race, a cultural definition of race or something in between. It's pretty common for people to stubbornly refuse to accept other definitions of words they use even when there's obviously multiple though. I'd expect if someone's going to go into a detailed discussion like de+ seems to want to that he'd be flexible enough to deal with semantics however especially when he makes a thread about a video that focuses on it heavily.

What on Earth is your point? That “selective subsection” is exactly the same as what you call “general use” in the very next sentence of your post. And why would you expect de+ to be flexible about semantics when doing so would cripple his argument from the word Go?

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quote:

Originally posted by Dykes_on_Jay White people doing a blackface routine is pretty racist imo.

If that's a jab at me, it's a miss cause I'm brown, as in people mistake me for being Hispanic but I'm Montenegrian Gipsy mix kind of brown . But if you're talking about those stage performers that wear that black face for the sake of art, that's a different subject all together. I know we're all a little racist inside to different degrees. My skin tone is the same shade as Terrence Howard lol.



Most my friends growing up were either black or spanish and in a lot of cases mixed race. My father is white Serbian and I see the way his side of the family looks at me and talks to me because of the color of my skin, it's like they don't feel comfortable around me. I rarely see them anymore because I used to feel like I wasn't good enough for them to sit at their table, fuking honkeys. Maybe they should've gave me a segregated table .

Maybe they feel uncomfortable because you are not black and always axing them to pass you some collard greens.

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lol @ collard greens, Are you planning to teach your chink wife how to make Bigoli without it tasting like lo mein .