quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Yeah thanks. Welcome to the world of music discussion.

Fair point, it is a discussion based on subjective opinions but again the bit I'm getting at is that your knowledge on this subject (or better said anything pre, what, 2004?) is purely academic and solely retrospective.

This isn't to berate or punish you for not being there or being old enough, but it is undeniable that your perspective on this subject, along with much of the music you profess to be an expert on is utterly devoid of experiential context.

Why is that flawed? Because as time goes on, people like to change the narrative of the past to suit their present. I know tons of people who were die hard fans of one thing, only for it to go out of fashion, and for them to suddenly have a very foggy recollection of how it was or even admit that they liked it.

I've seen (and actually known) many a producer and DJ to try to re-guild their history to fit a more respectable and contemporary friendly narrative.

This isn't fanboyism; I doubt I'd bother to bat an eyelid if Oakey were playing in my neighbor's garden these days, but that doesn't mean I don't have respect for what he did at one time, and this is where I believe your problem lies.

You don't seem to understand the weight Oakenfold had at the time. Trance was utterly dominant in clubs and festivals in the mid to late 90's when dance music completely ruled the UK and most Europe. He was the main headliner for nearly all the giant Essential mix festival and mega club recordings in this period, and that's when the essential mix really was the main staple of where clubbers (in their hundreds of thousands, if not millions per week in the UK alone) got their staple of new music.

This is not hearsay. It's fact. Go look it up.

I don't have enough disk space to list the number of times you've referenced Mixmag. They were the ones who led their 1998 issue with "the year of trance". You were still buying it 10 years later, can you imagine what pull it had in it's peak?

Who was DJ's mags 1# DJ in 1998?

Still need more?

So in the August issue of Mixmag in 1998, at which time it had the largest circulation of any dance music magazine in the world and the Ibiza listings was the most popular issue, the main center profile article lead with a piece on guess who?

Again, go look it up. There's your "citations".

However you want to say it, he was the biggest name at the time. No, that maybe doesn't equate to quality or taste (even though dozens of his essential mixes are widely coveted as being incredible).

I know you hate because it doesn't have the Kudos that other names did but it's real, and again, just because you don't like history, doesn't mean it didn't happen like that.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Just listing that he made a lot of singles and some of them sold a lot of copies is not going to convince me that the likes of Faster Pussycat are anything less than absolute dross, cheers.

So let's get this straight: you now want to make the argument that because he made some bad tracks for purely commercial reasons (wow, that would be a first from an EDM artist right?) that it negates everything he did before including his entire back catalog of singles and half a dozen albums many of which did quite well, got hammered in clubs and made it on to a ton of other DJ's compilations?

This is not making sense Jack. There's already enough people in this thread showing appreciation for his works to at least define him as a worthy producer.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Interesting argument. I'd like you to cite where exactly I've "referenced" IDJ or DJ Mag for a start, and do take your time because the next ice age isn't due for a while.

Typo on my part; I wrote singular Magazine to note Mixmag (which by you own admission in many threads you've referenced), then I went on to say DJ and IDJ (the two next largest EDM circulation magazines) crowned him #1. But obviously, my bad for the punctuation and grammar which made it look otherwise.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Secondly this is a very scenic route to demonstrating some sort of point - so a clutch of music magazines declared a certain year "the year of trance" and Oakenfold was a "major player" in that.

Well, not quite as cited above. I think being listed as no.1 dj held a lot more weight than it does now (no internet voting, vast majority of votes were people mailing in forms or postcards) and people actually went out and bought these magazines in far higher numbers, in fact peak numbers for them. He was the headlining trance DJ for most Essential mixes which was the most listened to dance music show for over a decade globally. He was the first DJ to play to 100,000 people in that period. Not really so scenic an approach when you quantify it in real terms.

So it's not really a "clutch" of magazines when those publications were the main source of info for millions punters, and again, they listed him as no.1 or wrote multipage headline articles on him.

To say it doesn't count is just being selectively blind, again because he's not interesting these days.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J does this suddenly make Oakenfold a good mixer? A good producer? Or merely someone who relentlessly pushed a certain en vogue sound as it entered commercial ascendency? Oakenfold's only real achievement throughout his career is taking things that other people invented - Balearic, goa, trance - and popularising them through canny marketing and promotion strategies. Impressive in a business sense perhaps, but not so much in an artistic of musical sense.

I have somewhere probably half a dozen old Oakenfold mixes on my drives. I'll go listen but a quick internet trawl pulled up the Creamfields 1998 and 1999 mixes. Hmmmm, no "trainwrecks". Pulled up a couple from amnesia ibiza. Still no trainwrecks. 2hr set from Gallery's 4th birthday in 1998. Nope still no trainwrecks.

Understand, I'm not saying he's infallible by any means or even a superb mixer. Last time I saw him a few years ago while in Vegas, he played better than I expected (very low expectations), but far from perfect and didn't give much of a shit about how tight he was.

I think where you're getting confused, is that there was a period where Oakenfold clearly stopped giving a shit, was apparently doing a lot of substances and they even jokingly got called the trainwreck years, but that was a lot later on around 2003, and not the period where he was the big name, playing massive gigs globally.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'd say a large number of observers are more reliable than one, I'd say that actually I have heard Oakey fuck up on numerous recorded mixes (he even fucked up massively on both his Global Underground comps, which is some feat on a commercially released CD)

Again, I'd love to hear all these trainwrecks on these commercially released CD's from that period?

Voyage in to trance. No trainwreck. Tranceport. No trainwreck. Journeys by Dj. No trainwreck. Those are just the ones I remember.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J and I'd even say that being "there at the time" is actually massively overrated when it comes to historical accuracy.

I was hoping you'd say this again. I have both retrospective references to draw from (like you, the internet, magazines) AND I witnessed them.

Now tell me which is more accurate: one or the other, or BOTH?

That's what I have, and you don't. I've also been in this scene long enough as a DJ and engineer to no look at previous times with Romanticism and avoid seeing things that aren't there. By the same token, historical or purely retrospective accounts gleaned from compiling various sources often strip away nuance and details that leave the sum lacking or in some cases only half formed.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J In the past you've claimed to have never heard of "tech-step" before I mentioned the term despite you being a regular clubber in London in the mid-90s (don't make me pull the clippings and citations of the term being used in that time)

And my argument with that is that it was a journalist only term, the type of thing EDM hacks were desperate to coin as a new compartmentalization to brand tiny microgenres for their own devices.
I used to regularly shop at around 15 or so record stores at that time at places that sold everything from US garage to D&B to house to Prog to trance - I never once saw or heard a section called "tech-step".

I believe it exists now, just as incredibly stupid micro genre names like Future Bass and Bro Step do, but most people (aside from journalists and bloggers) never take it seriously or can bring themselves to ever say it in front of people for risk of sounding like a twat.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J nary six months ago you expressed bafflement that X-Press 2 were playing at a Cream Reunion because Cream wasn't "their territory" despite them holding a residency there in 1997 (again, do you really want me to pull out the archives?)

I hate to tell you but this "residency" you keep banging on about lasted less than 6 months, and they were unceremoniously replaced by Nick Warren. In fact it was the shortest residency in the entire history of Cream. How about you go look for that citation - You might want to do your research better, and hence why I say it's "not really their territory"

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J You can call back on the I TROLL YOU card if you so wish but unless you encountered some miracle run of flawless Oakenfold livesets I'd say you were too bollocksed, too starstruck, too forgetful or just plain didn't have the ear to know any better. Oakenfold was a gash mixer and everyone knows it.

I think there's enough sets out there from the 90's without all these apparent abundant trainwrecks to suggest he was at least at one point a decent DJ. I don't even think he was a great DJ in the same way Sasha or Sven Vath or Cox was, but I think you're trying to understate his ability and achievements based on current feelings about him.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN I think there's enough sets out there from the 90's without all these apparent abundant trainwrecks to suggest he was at least at one point a decent DJ.

If this is what all that content comes down to, then I'm just going to take it upon myself to add my own perspective to this discussion by addressing this one point. Whether or not Oakenfold is a decent DJ (and I find it hilarious that someone has to put up such a deeply impassioned argument in defense of his mediocrity) depends upon the musical values of the person you ask. If you're asking someone who emphasizes technical proficiency above all else- who demands more of a DJ then to simply blend in and out- then no, Oakenfold is subpar, and only when he's not a dismal failure. When he's not train wrecking, he's barely stitching things together in the most perfunctory way possible. Sure, he has moments of 'woah, what was that?,' and 'hey, that was pretty cool,' but so does your average bedroom DJ, and Oakenfold's technical competency is little better than that.

But those aren't my values, as track selection and sequencing go much further for me than turntable acrobatics, and Oakenfold- among the genres he plays (or played)- had always proved such a reliable pleasure in those two categories. He knows what sounds good, what sounds good when paired with other things that sound good, and where to make it all sound great. But I also have to believe I'd enjoy him so much more if he wasn't either so lazy or incapable behind the decks, and since 'not train wrecking' it not the same thing as 'playing well,' that weighs against him, which leaves me believing him to be squarely decent.

So I think you could and should bypass any arguments that relate to his botched mixes, for aside from it being an argument you simply cannot win, I think there are other, better lines you could take if you want to demonstrate this person as deserving of his reputation.

___________________
He traded sands for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand. Afari, Tales

Oakenfold in his heyday was a good mixer, good enough to get 95% on a mixing test. Who cares about the errors? Anyone who tries to nitpick his transitions should just stop for a moment and consider this for 2 solitary seconds: there's no fucking BPM counter, sync button, and a bunch of other helpful crap on technics. you're on your own when you're mixing on turntables, and even if the transitions aren't as tight as they should be, slack should be given especially if the tunes are good and you're having a good time.

All the Oakenfold haters in a nutshell, are saying that he was overrated. I'd say he was rated as he deserved to be, the #1 DJ in the world.

SYSTEM-J is just as big a Oakie hater as he claims others to be Oakie fanboys, there is no point in arguing with him. He has already made up his mind.. Oakenfold is the worst, most talent-less DJ/Producer in the world and anything good he did was a couple of tunes in the 90s, and he cannot mix for anything in the world.

For me half the things he has done and is still doing is good /great and the other half is bad. Thats for me a 50% success rate, and no other producer or DJ comes close to that for me. Look at what Tiesto and Armin is doing its all utter shit! zero percentage.

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http://soundcloud.com/subtara

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle For me half the things he has done and is still doing is good /great and the other half is bad. Thats for me a 50% success rate, and no other producer or DJ comes close to that for me. Look at what Tiesto and Armin is doing its all utter shit! zero percentage.

But Armin can mix without a trainwreck. Greatest. DJ. Ever!

___________________
Everyone has an opinion. Mine just happens to be a little more informed than most.
Electronic Music Critic: Near-Daily Ruminations Of Music I Own, In Alphabetical Order!

quote:

Originally posted by Sykonee But Armin can mix without a trainwreck. Greatest. DJ. Ever!

A DJ is only as good as his records!

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http://soundcloud.com/subtara

when i listen back to Oakenfold's sets or CDs I always feel a great sense of nostalgia. i could care less what he's up to these days, but sometimes it's nice to listen to the past. that's about all he's good for imo.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN You don't seem to understand the weight Oakenfold had at the time. Trance was utterly dominant in clubs and festivals in the mid to late 90's when dance music completely ruled the UK and most Europe. He was the main headliner for nearly all the giant Essential mix festival and mega club recordings in this period, and that's when the essential mix really was the main staple of where clubbers (in their hundreds of thousands, if not millions per week in the UK alone) got their staple of new music.

I fully understand the weight Oakenfold had at the time. If anything, you've not given him his full historical credit because what he did around 1988-90 was far more important when it comes to the history of dance music and rave culture. I'm not going to deny that Oakenfold was a hugely popular DJ or even that he was a hugely important one. However, that doesn't really have much relevance on whether or not he was very good, which is something you don't really seem to be following here.

I stated the most of Oakenfold's productions weren't very good. You responded with a string of statistics, as if telling me he released 25 singles in a decade or sold a certain number of copies is going to somehow change the way his productions sound. I reiterate my point and you respond with talking about how popular he was, how he was Magazine X & Ys DJ of the year, again as if any of that is really relevant to what I said. As with any Oakenfold acolyte (and by the way, please do let me know when you decide it's time to start claiming you're "trolling") your response to any criticism leans almost exclusively on the "first DJ on the moon" rhetoric, as if the exact same argument couldn't be used on behalf of someone like David Guetta today.

Quite simply, I don't care how popular Oakenfold was in 1998. I care how well his productions and his DJing stand up today. The simple fact is the number of people who were there at the time in 1998 is only going to slowly diminish, and the number of people who only know Oakenfold in retrospect is only going to increase. That's the same as The Beatles, as Pink Floyd, as Chopin, as anyone else. Most of us weren't there at the time, and what is relevant is how well they stand up today. As I said previously, Oakenfold was probably the club scene's greatest ever A&R man, disguised as a DJ. His achievements almost entirely revolve around jumping on new trends and exploiting them - taking sounds other people pioneered and popularising them, taking records other labels put out and re-licensing them, and so on.

If you separate the "first DJ in space" rhetoric and actually just discuss his productions on their own merits, most of them are pretty terrible. Most of what he did in the '90s comprises of Perfecto remixes, and the only Grace single worth a toss in its unremixed form is Orange, which is a repurposed Perfecto remix of U2 - Lemon anyway. So really, I'm not actually being that harsh. The majority of his productions under his own name actually came in the '00s, a period in which even his defenders would say he lost the plot. I suppose I should extend my credit to acknowledging some of the Happy Mondays tracks, although I imagine most people in this thread would turn their nose up at the likes of Kinky Afro.

I'm not going to get into the DJing because each post would end up being about 10,000 words long, and it doesn't really have anything to do with this thread or my original post. If you want to hear the huge fuck-ups on the GU comps, listen to Music -> Setting Stone on GU:004 (not only completely out of time but also horrendously out of key, creating perhaps the most ugly transition I've ever heard on a CD) or Paradise -> Greece 2000 on GU:007 (cueing on the second beat of a bar, the kind of mistake you'd be embarrassed to make after 6 months of practise in the bedroom). Most of his other compilations (such as Tranceport) were mixed in ProTools, which is why they don't contain any technical errors (although the mixing is still laughably basic in many cases).

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Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

I think that was actually the first Oakenfold I ever heard...still a great track.

I never heard "Starry Eyed Surprise" until someone who wasn't normally into dance music showed it to me, heh. At the time I was much more into PvD, Tiesto, Armin, Sasha.

I've seen him DJ a few times and it's absolutely true that he's not a stellar mixer...I've had bedroom DJ friends that were more reliable on the decks. But he did play good tunes.