quote:

Originally posted by FuzzQi If there's anything I've observed from seeing the Gulf War, the raids in the mid 90s, the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan from 2003 onward, the recent withdrawal of the USA, and the surge forward of ISIS, it's that pursuing peace in this part of the world is almost pointless. We all may as well leave them alone to blow each other up if that's what they want to do.

The people on that mountain have no dog in this fight. They were forced up there because ISIS said they will kill them if they do not convert to Islam. They are trying to eradicate an entire people. They are openly waging a genocidal campaign.

I thought this was a thread about Archer

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzQi If there's anything I've observed from seeing the Gulf War, the raids in the mid 90s, the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan from 2003 onward, the recent withdrawal of the USA, and the surge forward of ISIS, it's that pursuing peace in this part of the world is almost pointless. We all may as well leave them alone to blow each other up if that's what they want to do.

You do know ISIS plans on taking parts of Europe and kill random "infidels" around the world too right? how much time should we give them to grow? 10 years? 20?

But i do agree there's not much point in stopping radical Islam, maybe it will die in 100 years (probably not).

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Originally posted by Vector A That would be successful in not getting any more of our soldiers killed, anyway.

There's more to it than the soldiers though. It's not clear what the best method is to get a stable long term democracy in Iraq.

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzQi It's that pursuing peace in this part of the world is almost pointless. We all may as well leave them alone to blow each other up if that's what they want to do.

I feel that in general sending in troops to fix things is a bad idea. The plurality and foundations of democracy need to establish themselves dynamically. Dictatorships will eventually fall. While that's true generally... ISIS are pretty evil. I'd be supportive of air strikes to push the tide against them.

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Originally posted by Viber You do know ISIS plans on taking parts of Europe and kill random "infidels" around the world too right? how much time should we give them to grow? 10 years? 20?

Yeh because that's likely. I highly doubt their strongly reactionary agenda would hold significant appeal to any significant number of muslims in europe. If anything their general agenda and megalomaniac tendencies will work against them. As soon as their supporters realise that god isn't on their side and that they treat their people like crap (and inevitably start being more dictatorial and rent seeking) their support will start to fizzle. Thousands might be dead by that stage though. I don't think they'll be around for as long as the Taliban have been in Afghanistan.

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Last edited by Psyshell on Aug-14-2014 at 12:12

I agree and like I said we don't want to have to fight the Iraqi battles for them. We intervened to stop genocide and contain Isis. We should only support, train, aid in repelling Isis with the condition they will make an inclusive government that functions as a state that can take care of its citizens and defend its borders.

IGK: foreign policy expert extraordinaire.

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Originally posted by Lews Well, yes, most religions could definitely find such justification if they wanted to. I'm kind of confused about what that has to do with not wanting to bomb ISIS.

I guess the point I was tip-toeing around is that these aren't just bad Muslims. They haven't merely cherry-picked their religion to come up with excuses, as so many apologists would like to assure you of; This is Islam.

Perhaps they misrepresent Muslims as a collective people, as most of them are pretty nice and don't go around hacking off digits or forcing conversion onto others. But as this region further desiccates and further destabilizes in the coming decades as they sell their geopolitical redemption, barrel by barrel, the West is going to need to have a very frank discussion on moral relativism and intolerance.

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It's rather difficult to be tolerant with a group of people who even Al Qaeda called too extreme.

I agree. It's why I am not a Christian.

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Despite my joke about another Crusade, I think it speaks to how terrible ISIS is that the Vatican is condoning violence to stop them. I'm not sure if the article I linked to mentioned this or not, but the Vatican didn't support either the 2003 or the 1990 actions against Saddam - the latter of which most people in the world agree was a legitimate use of force. For the most part the Vatican has been extremely anti-war for a number of decades (at the least) now.

Right, The Vatican thinks it gets a say because of Christian minorities. And it says military intervention, not humanitarian intervention, is what's necessary. I'm not necessarily disputing this notion, merely the source. Military is an inherently inhumane force; it's purpose is not to save lives, but to broker their cost. I know there are numerous examples of humanitarian deployments and genuinely heroic deeds, but they are mere pageantry for News Networks when it comes to the true cost of intervening in Iraq, again; that humanitarian cost in lieu of these self-appraised Christians' urge to eschew meekness for The Sword, again.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jon_Snow ...with the condition they will make an inclusive government that functions as a state that can take care of its citizens and defend its borders.

"If we give you the real big guns will you promise to play nice with them?"

"Yes sir! Honest!"

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J "If we give you the real big guns will you promise to play nice with them?" "Yes sir! Honest!"

In the past we have given unconditional aid with hopes of future reforms. I'm suggesting that they should proceed in tandem. Isis is providing us leverage for. insisting on reforms.

Isis is a symptom not the cause.

vote to move this shit to http://tranceaddict.com/forums/foru...p?s=&forumid=66