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Essential1
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Brampton

quote:
Originally posted by Photo_bot_2k1
i thought sterotyping was a type of racism
and thats the type of stuff they tell u not to do in school becuase its badddddddddd


stereotype is an uneducated idea u have against a person/group of people. Prejudice is hatred towards a person/group of people because of thier beliefs/cultures. Racism is basically a combination of both. Stereotypes are not too bad IMO b/c it often helps prove how ignorant some people can be. But I am agianst prejudice and racism.

I'm not prejudice, I hate everyone equally (lol j/k)


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Old Post Oct-22-2002 06:37  Italy
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trancaholic
Danish Prophet of Doom



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aalborg

quote:
Originally posted by Essential1
stereotype is an uneducated idea u have against a person/group of people. Prejudice is hatred towards a person/group of people because of thier beliefs/cultures. Racism is basically a combination of both. Stereotypes are not too bad IMO b/c it often helps prove how ignorant some people can be. But I am agianst prejudice and racism.


Adding to your last point, I'll claim that stereotyping is an integral part of getting through life:

If a big tonsured bloke is bumping into me in a bar twice, I will immediately stereotype him as a bully and take precautions, although he could easily have been bumping into me on accident. Had he been a small skinny guy with freckles and glasses I wouldn't expect anything violent, eventhough he might as well be carrying a knife.

The point is, if I weren't stereotyping I might have told the big guy to stop bumbing into me, but somehow I would expect a different reaction from him than an excuse.

Similarly I tend to classify people on the fly, as "likes me", "looking bored" etc., which often might be misclassification, but - I think - most often helps me subconsciously navigate my way through a conversation towards my goal.

That is, I think that stereotyping is something we all do, the difference is when you start applying stereotyping beyond personal experience (e.g. DarkTrance's comment in that other thread) and common sense.

And now for something completely different: I would like to know which, if any, of the following statements you would classify as racism (and why):
"Asians are generally more polite than other ethnic groups",
"White people are generally more tolerant than other ethnic groups", and
"Africans are generally better dancers than other ethnic groups".
???

Old Post Oct-22-2002 07:38  Denmark
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Arbiter
Naked Power Organ



Registered: May 2002
Location:

What irony the intolerance of intolerance is.

Old Post Oct-22-2002 20:19 
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Essential1
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Brampton

quote:
Originally posted by trancaholic
And now for something completely different: I would like to know which, if any, of the following statements you would classify as racism (and why):
"Asians are generally more polite than other ethnic groups",
"White people are generally more tolerant than other ethnic groups", and
"Africans are generally better dancers than other ethnic groups".
???


I honestly don't think any of these statements are racist, because they are just statements not directed to anyone in particular. if u said "asians are more tolerant than white people", "white people are more tolerant than black people", or "africans are better dancers than white people" then i would consider them racist.


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Old Post Oct-22-2002 21:53  Italy
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Dmatrox
something goes here?



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Calgary

quote:
Originally posted by Essential1
What's next, banning someone for saying "All italians eat pasta"?
I'm not promoting racism, but using a well known stereotype in a joke that's not directed to an individual is not racism IMO.


Good point.

Whats next? immigrants owning convience stores? black people rapping? kids going to raves and popping pills?

Old Post Oct-23-2002 02:54  Canada
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Dmatrox
something goes here?



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Calgary

quote:
Originally posted by trancaholic
Adding to your last point, I'll claim that stereotyping is an integral part of getting through life:

If a big tonsured bloke is bumping into me in a bar twice, I will immediately stereotype him as a bully and take precautions, although he could easily have been bumping into me on accident. Had he been a small skinny guy with freckles and glasses I wouldn't expect anything violent, eventhough he might as well be carrying a knife.

The point is, if I weren't stereotyping I might have told the big guy to stop bumbing into me, but somehow I would expect a different reaction from him than an excuse.

Similarly I tend to classify people on the fly, as "likes me", "looking bored" etc., which often might be misclassification, but - I think - most often helps me subconsciously navigate my way through a conversation towards my goal.

That is, I think that stereotyping is something we all do, the difference is when you start applying stereotyping beyond personal experience (e.g. DarkTrance's comment in that other thread) and common sense.

And now for something completely different: I would like to know which, if any, of the following statements you would classify as racism (and why):
"Asians are generally more polite than other ethnic groups",
"White people are generally more tolerant than other ethnic groups", and
"Africans are generally better dancers than other ethnic groups".
???


Good point. Also tall vs. short, goodlooking vs. ugly, majority vs. minority, blond vs. brunette, all play apart in peoples opinions and ideas which lead to a stereotype. Why dont we consider a stereotype as a majority thinking rather than a classification for an entire group of people.

Old Post Oct-23-2002 02:59  Canada
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Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

quote:
And now for something completely different: I would like to know which, if any, of the following statements you would classify as racism (and why):
"Asians are generally more polite than other ethnic groups",
"White people are generally more tolerant than other ethnic groups", and
"Africans are generally better dancers than other ethnic groups".
???


Obviously it depends on the definition of "racism".

I think racism, most broadly, would be the application of a universal statement (I'm sure you're familiar with syllogicstic logic?) to a particular race. Therefore, to say "all Asians are more polite than any other ethnic groups" would be racist in this sense, because you are - almost a priori - attributing, universally, a quality to the entire poluation of a particular set. If the statement were particular (as opposed to universal) on the other hand (i.e. "many Asians are more polite") then it would not be racist, as there is no sweeping, universal statement based on the "race" of a particular population.

The statement "Asians are generally more polite" however, seems to be somewhere in between. Strictly sepaking, it would be more particular than universal, as it does not say that all Asians are more polite, but it still seems to be attributing a particular quality to a population. However, technically, these statements would not be considered "racist" via our first definition, simply because they are not making a universal statement under the pretense of race.

The next definition of racism, runs something akin to what could be described as "racial chauvanism". This definition of racism would say that universal statements based on race would be okay, so long as they neither attempted to promote the superiority of one race, nor the inferiority of another. The statements you made, if you removed the word "generally" would still be considered racist by this definition (as with the above definition) as not only would the statement be universal on the basis of "race" it would attempt to promote the superiority of a certain race (if only in a specific facet of behaviour). Therefore, a universal statement such as "All Asians like apples" would be racist under the first definition but probably not under the second, as it is neutral in terms of either promoting or demoting the superiority of a given race.

However, given that your statements are "particular" rather than "universal" (due to the addition of the word "generally") it would be hard to label them chauvanistic as chauvanism would (in my mind) require stating the superiority/inferiority of an entire population bound by some common trait. You can't be chauvanistic if you say "Many Asians are polite" or even if you say "All Asians are polite and so are all Black People" because in the first case, the statement is particular and in the second, as there is no attempt to imply the superiority of a population against another, there does not seem to be any hint of chauvanism involved (unless you want to argue that the statement was made to assert the superiority of Asian people and black people over white people).

The last definition of racism I can think of is the "PC Definition" which, so far as I'm concerned, misses the point.

It's hard to define, as there is no real logical consistency to it, but it appears to rely on the "balance of societal power" to ascertain whether a statement is racist or not. That is, for an Asian to say "I think all white people are impolite" in a society that is "white", or where white people hold the majority of the power anyway, would be more acceptable by this definition, than for a white person of the same society to say "I think all Asians are impolite" - or rather than the first statement being more acceptable, I should say that the second statement is less acceptable. Of course, the other way around (i.e. a white man in an Asian society) we would expect the opposite to be true (i.e. it would be less acceptable for an Asian to make negative universal statements about a white people in an Asian society, than for a white person to make the same statement about Asians in the same society). Though of course, on a global level, in a world where the balance of power seems heavily skewed in the favour of white western societies, white people, regardless of which society they live in, have to be very careful about what they choose to say about another race.

Anyway, the main qualities of this "PC Racism" seem to be that the statement must be negative towards a particular race and does not really need to be universal in order to be considered "racist". Therefore, to say "all black people are good dancers" would be technically racist via our previous definitions, but not under the PC one (so long as we assume a non-black person is saying) as it is a "positive" universal generalisation. Similarly, saying "many black people are criminals" - while it is not universal, but rather particular to some members of a given population - would probably be enough to get the PC Police out of the woodwork and be condemned as "racist".

I don't really know where I stand, having said all that, it's a very grey issue. For me, for something to be considered racist, I suppose it must be a universal statement based on race, and there must be an element of "untruth" or "ignorance" to it (so it would be racist to say "all Asian people are impolite" but not "all Asian people, naturally, have black hair"). If its intended to incite hatred against a certain race as well (regardless of how it is phrased) then that's usually enough for me to label it as being racist as well.

Anyway, I think that's enough for now. Hope you all found it illuminating.


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Old Post Oct-23-2002 16:35  Australia
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TranceGiant
randomly disappoints



Registered: Jun 2001
Location: (Strudel)-City that never sleeps

Great post Renegade. As with all condeming adjectives we should be really cautious with the use of the word "racist" / "racism". Coninidentally I just read a very interesting article dealing with the infaltionary use of "hitler" and "nazi" when absolutely rejecting/condeming something. Hitler is the modern substitution of "Devil" as the latter doesn't work to well in today's secular society's. Moreover the historical truth gives the "hitler" word even more power...but unfortunately nowadays its use indicates almost always argumentative weakness since once u grab the Nazi or even the discussed "racist" weapon u virtually put and end to every discussion, a nice way to sneak out of tricky issues. Such words are KO punches and as I said should remain the resort in every discussion.


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Old Post Oct-23-2002 18:00  United States
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Izzy
Virtue & Vice



Registered: Apr 2001
Location: TX TA #5

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
Anyway, I think that's enough for now. Hope you all found it illuminating.


stimulating as always renegade, great post


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Old Post Oct-23-2002 18:03 
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Greedy
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Apr 2002
Location: NoVA/DC

good, he was SUSPENDED and dark trance is on his way.


___________________
When you start to criticize the times you live in, your time is over. ~Karl Lagerfeld

Last edited by Greedy on Oct-24-2002 at 06:47

Old Post Oct-24-2002 06:14  Vietnam
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davinox
diving deep into sound



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: you could say i'm from dallas

quote:
Originally posted by inatrance
lmilk was suspended for a reason, davinox was too... if you want more details PM mods..


quote:
Originally posted by Busy Child
good, he was banned and dark trance is on his way.



try to read the whole thread


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Old Post Oct-24-2002 06:45  Tunisia
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