quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter ... The sad truth is that guns are very much tied to the culture of the US, and simply banning them is not a viable solution to the problem of gun-related violence. ...

thanks for saying this.

one problem i have with others outside of the US judging how 'moronic' or whatever we USers are for having guns fails to realize that no other nation was created in the same way as the US. it goes all the way back to the 15th century, when people started coming here enmasse. while not directly correlatable with feudalism, the lack of a European or Indo-European history here meant it was a blank slate for those early settlers. we all know the Constitution 'protects' gun owners here, but that was an early construction, that due to our culture has pervaded society to this day.

the reason there isnt a 'problem' with guns elsewhere is that these nations werent built on them. im not pro-guns, as i have stated - but that doesnt make them any less of part of who i am and the society i live in. i cant even tell you when the last time i even SAW a non-video game gun...but that statement in itself is prolly incriminating to some staunch republican senator...whatever, and there is of course the flipside, people who go everywhere with guns...its reality|


oooh...nice post Cortex, all further inquiries to this post should be directed there!

___________________
'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'

Theres quite a few more guns circulating in the UK at the moment however my view on guns in the US, as your saying JM about criminals getting guns yes they probably will, but the guns will be harder to find if an arms dealer knew they'd get 3 years in prison they might stop or keep their services at a minium.

Gun control would probably stop some nut going a rampage in a supermarket or something after catching his wife fucking her fitness trainer. It would stop some kid getting his dads hunting rifle and magnum and opening fire a bunch of fellow students at their school just because someone took the piss out of him. With Gun control it would probably help sto[ these random homocides that are carried by ordinary people, the types of people who you work with, the type of person who's your next door neighbour, their the sort of people who if the government said your caught with a gun your getting 18 months in nick, would happily hand all firearms they posses over to the authorities.

With the criminals yes criminals do kill ordinary people and its sad, but mostly in your worst area's of your city who usually ends up getting killed every night on a pavement or in a house? its usually a criminal, who was killed by a rival gangster, or a crack dealer over some money or disrespect of some kind.

If you did banish guns which you won't you'd probably have more people killed by axes and knives, however theres this mentality about guns and I do understand it, people want to protect themselves from the scum in society because they live in terror that they might end up in a bodybag. To make people feel safe you need to get the criminals by the root, when their young for an example, they need to be taught right from wrong, they need to learn you can make easy money via crime, but theres a chance your going to get caught and all it will lead to is a bodybag or prison. The social problems are what lead to the criminals, how about more resources being pumped into the projects and ghettos, better policing, better security, better teaching, better facilities for the area, more employment the government needs to do them sort of things, even if it took from a group of 200 criminals in a district 50 away from that number its a result.

Also if the police don't dare venture into certain areas of cities, how about the glorius army? you know a group of cops with 9 mm handguns up against some criminal with a fuck off AK 47 don't really work or would intimidate the criminals, if the criminals knew they were up against highly trained, highly motivated, highly mobile, well equiped opponent, I'm sure most of them would give up their criminal career. It would never happen this, as their would probably be a riot, but I'm sure on the gun control issue, a criminal would shit themselves if a unit of 10 well armed soldiers kicked down their door to look for weapons.

___________________

Last edited by Dj O'Callaghan on Nov-03-2002 at 14:43

quote:

Originally posted by Juricimo i'm looking at it from a "life or death" point of view, but you're looking at it from a "please don't kill me" point of view. i REFUSE to bargain. >JM<

I'd look at it more like you're looking at it from a worst-case scenario "This guy is clearly out for blood, and if I don't act I'm dead" point of view.

Meanwhile, I'm looking at it from a "Why would someone come up to me like this, and what's the best way to escape alive?" perspective.

Basically, IMHO, I'm not giving in to irrational thought about the situation like you seem to be doing. I mean, maybe you can shed some more light on this, but I just don't see the possibility of being spontaneously attacked, for no reason, with no hope of negotiation, as a very likely scenario.

Maybe West Seattle is a rough area, but I've been in pretty seedy neighbourhoods in Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Detroit, and I've never had anything remotely like that happen to me, nor do I know anyone that something like that has happened to.

People act for reasons, granted, those reasons can be out of whack, but I just don't think this "life or death because no negotiation is possible, so shoot while you can" scenario really comes up all that often unless you go out looking for it.

Someone approaching you with a gun is doing it for a reason, if you can understand what their reasoning is you can likely get some sort of resolution without getting plugged along the way. If you pull a gun you're going to immediately make them react emotionally as well, which, as I said, doesn't seem to be increasing the liklihood of surviving the situation, which I assume is what we'd be aiming for.

On a related note, I just saw Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" movie this evening, and he brings up a good point in that the US culture is permeated by fear, fear of being randomly raped, murdered, and so forth. Fear of having your kids stolen, fear of terrorist attacks, fear of minority ethnic groups (helped along by lovely crap on Fox like "Cops") even going down to the corporate inspired fears of having pimples, or of wearing "uncool" clothes, and so forth.

People are buying and keeping guns largely out of that fear. Gun sales spiked over 70% in the wake of the 11.09.01 attacks, and people seem to be taking Juricimo's attitude, that other people are to be feared and distrusted, that the best policy is to have a gun, because then you'll be in control if anything goes wrong...but, IMHO, (and I'll steal a line here) it's nothing but an illusion of safety.

Not to mention the fact that a nation full of paranoid and afraid people are the last group that *I'd* want to see armed en masse...

DJ O'Callaghan brings up a good point as well, that if people don't own guns to begin with, you don't have spontaneous crimes committed with them like your crimes of passion, like your school shootings, and so forth.

I know people tend to bring up the possibility of other murder weapons in these debates, but I still defend my stance that guns are one of the most impersonal killing devices ever created, and it makes it a little too easy for my tastes, it doesn't give you a chance to think about what you're doing like a knife, garotte, and so forth would.

Finally, a brief thought on Biznology's post which mentioned the right to bear arms...Moore brought that up in his movie as well, and what he had to say was interesting to me, the comparison is a little extreme, but it serves as an illustration.

Basically, he was talking with James Nichols, the brother of Terry Nichols, aka, 1 of the guys who blew up the federal building in Oklahoma.

Anyhow, they got onto the right to bear arms piece, and Mike brought up the fact that that doesn't clearly line out the fact that "arms" = "guns" like seems to be assumed lately.

Moore's example was that you could easily define weapons grade plutonium as "arms", but no one in the country (well, most rational people at least...) would argue that the constitution gives people the right to hold onto that.

Once you agree, that yes, there *can* be limitations, for public safety, then you can see how that particular argument has some holes when it's applied to guns as well.

Just food for thought, honestly, if the public opinion turned against guns tomorrow it's not as though an amendment in the constitution would stop gun control. Amendments only exist because they're still popular, and they regularly end up being sacrificed in the name of safety, I don't see any reason why guns couldn't be yet another in a long line of such sacrifices if the people were up for it.

In any case I have to recommend the movie to anyone who's been involved in this debate. It's still fairly obscure, but another very interesting piece by Moore which makes you think, and rethink things.

the argument that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" has its valid points, but another issue about guns in the US is registration. i don't see why everyone is so against registration. even if it were to curb violent crime by a fraction it would be well worth it. the nra wants everyone to believe that registration is some kind of infringement on their right to bear arms but how ridiculous is it for the government NOT to control something that is designed to kill things??

is it an infrigement of rights to register your car? your business? then why is it such a big deal for the government to know how many guns you own? if law abiding citizens are using guns for self defence then why would they have anything to fear from gun control?

i don't understand how the government can have such a hard line against legalizing pot, but allow people to roam the streets with unregistered weapons. makes no sense.

___________________

You guys don't get it.

I have a gun, a very nice one, actually. Mine is a Desert Eagle .45. I seriously doubt many cat burglars have a larger gun, but does it matter if they have a larger one? lol.

Anyway, I did not get my gun from fucking Wal-Mart. I got mine through a connection. Yes, off the streets. I have my gun for my protection. I have things in my apt. that people should not and will not fuck with. And I deal with things that requires people being straight with you. I have no intention at all of killing anyone.

Now if there was a law that said, with the exception of military and law enforcment, no one could own, buy, or sell guns...guess what...I'd still have mine! My 3 friends that have them would still have theirs!

So find it VERY hard to beleive that the sniper would go to Wal-Mart and be like... "What? I can't get an assult rifle? Damn, I guess I just won't go on that killing spree"

BULLSHIT!

"The Right to Bear Arms" I'm sure our forfathers knew what the fuck they were talking about.

___________________
"Oh NO! It seems the world has been infected by a disease called shitty music.
We've had innocculations for some time now but the populace keeps refusing it.
You don't want it? Fine. Give me all the vaccine and a needle and I'll fucking overdose.
It'll be the best day of my life."

quote:

Originally posted by SpykeChyld You guys don't get it. I have a gun, a very nice one, actually. Mine is a Desert Eagle .45. I seriously doubt many cat burglars have a larger gun, but does it matter if they have a larger one? lol. Anyway, I did not get my gun from fucking Wal-Mart. I got mine through a connection. Yes, off the streets. I have my gun for my protection. I have things in my apt. that people should not and will not fuck with. And I deal with things that requires people being straight with you. I have no intention at all of killing anyone. Now if there was a law that said, with the exception of military and law enforcment, no one could own, buy, or sell guns...guess what...I'd still have mine! My 3 friends that have them would still have theirs! So find it VERY hard to beleive that the sniper would go to Wal-Mart and be like... "What? I can't get an assult rifle? Damn, I guess I just won't go on that killing spree" BULLSHIT! "The Right to Bear Arms" I'm sure our forfathers knew what the fuck they were talking about.

sure dude, and America has major problems with guns nowadays and Europe doesn't have major problems with guns, so can you tell me why that is??

You know what the problem is in America with guns.

I have been to America twice, a total of 6 weeks, once when I was 10 and once when I was 15. I live in Holland for 18 years now (minus the weeks I've been on vacation to other countries). I KNOW WHERE I CAN BUY A FUCKING GUN IN AMERICA AND I DON'T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE WHERE I CAN BUY ONE HERE IN HOLLAND!!!!!

sad isn't it?

it makes me just damn pissed that some of you think it's cool to have a gun at home, you are going to use it eventually and that is just sick

___________________
Alsof Het G*dverdomme Himmel Niks Kost!!!

I don't fucking think it's cool at all.

I have it because I live very close to a very bad neighborhood and I know half the people there have them and would have no problem at all putting a bullet through my head for my damn TV!

You've been to America twice? wow, I'm impressed! LOL. Yeah, there are gun stores on the corners! SO!?!? THATS NOT WHERE CRIMINALS BUY GUNS!

The gun stores are where people buy guns for hunting or protection. Someone does not go to the gun store when they are gonna go kill someone.

Honestly, thats why I have a gun off the street. Cus I know if someone fucks with me enough where I DO have to pull that trigger the gun is gonna be clean. Every criminal knows that.

Thats the whole point. As long as you can get guns off the street it doesn't matter how many gun shops there are or how many gun laws are made.

Look at weed! It is illegal here. You can't get it from a store. But guess what? That don't mean 1/2 the country ain't potheads!

___________________
"Oh NO! It seems the world has been infected by a disease called shitty music.
We've had innocculations for some time now but the populace keeps refusing it.
You don't want it? Fine. Give me all the vaccine and a needle and I'll fucking overdose.
It'll be the best day of my life."

it doesn't matter if the criminals buy their guns on the street, it is a combination off both, you can buy them on the street and you can buy them in a shop, both pretty easy

The U.S. made it tolerant having a gun, "So why not have one". The reason why there are so many shootings in the US is because loads of people have a gun, they even carry it with them on the streets, it is very easy to use that gun too, why not use it when you are REALLY pissed huh?

the most stupid thing is to use it when you get robbed (or something like that) they have a gun, you have a gun, you don't want to give them your money and you grab your own gun, you are killed because you tried to grab your gun, the man who want to rob you wouldn't have killed you when you just gave him his money. but because you have that gun you are dead

America shouldn't moan about the amount of cops being killed or about the amount of shootings they have, it is all their own stupid fault, and they can't turn it back anymore. in fact they shouldn't moan about the sniper-killings last month, a psycho can easily buy that sniper gun to kill people because of the absurd standing against guns from the government of the US of A

I realise that you don't see my point, you even own a gun yourself, so I am just going to stop wit this conversation about guns because it is useless

___________________
Alsof Het G*dverdomme Himmel Niks Kost!!!

quote:

HAVE A FUCKING CLUE WHERE I CAN BUY ONE HERE IN HOLLAND!!!!!

I do. No problem.

But on topic: the times of the Wild West are 150 years ago. Get civilised! You get a 100.000 Euro (max) fine when they catch you with a gun here.

Pepperspray? 10.000 Euro.

A good thing. Guns are for warfare, not for personal use.

quote:

Originally posted by Juricimo guns dont kill people, people kill people. if someone does want a gun, they dont have to go through all the legal bullshit to get one. it is just as easy if not easier to get them illegally off the street. so criminals, those that want to shoot and kill, WILL shoot and kill regardless. yeah, i dont mind stricter gun-obtaining laws and such, but those that are legally able to possess one should have the right to. but like i said, criminals will get their guns and do whatever they want regardless. >JM<

I totally agree with you dude. It's not the guns - it's the people. Even if you restricted guns in the US, people would still find ways to get them, and use them in crimes. I am for strict gun laws and background checks, but in the end, is it really possible to ban guns in the US? Probably not..

quote:

Originally posted by jploveparade I do. No problem.

you live in Amsterdam, when I would live in Amsterdam I would probably know too, I meant where I live. I live in a small town with 30.000 inhabitants, and in the neighbourhood of 3 rather big cities, and I really don't have a clue where I can buy a gun in my "neighbourhood"

___________________
Alsof Het G*dverdomme Himmel Niks Kost!!!