i feel that history repeats itself..it seems as if theres a time period where evil in the world accumulates so much that it is unbearable to any civilized human..whos fault is it..everybodies..no matter where you live or what you do in your daily life, everytime you do something you know is wrong or without care you contribute to the hate..i love how every debate turns out to be a flame war against amercians when truly they are the only ones trying to make sense out of what might be another World War..The hate is here already and trust me the americans did not start it..hate can be contolled only by the people of this world..not by any particular government..so please people stop trying to point fingers..start looking at your own life to see how you can contribute to a world of peace and love instead of contributing to hate as you all do so well in this forum..go out and sponsor a kid who has nothing..give money to the poor..go join a missionary..tell a joke..smile..think of ways to use your gifts to prosper not only yourself BUT the world too..

trust me i think that the american government f***s up a lot..it seems as if americans are bashed the minute they make a mistake..even if their intent was to make a situation better..no one leaves the americans slack when it comes to mistakes simply because the rest of the world THINKS we are perfect..well i guess all ur flame wars PROVES we aren't..truth is nobodies perfect..notice how theres no topics on how much good the americans accomplish when it comes to helping countries in need..i cant list every good and bad thing the americans have done..but i know for sure "we the world" only here the bad..keep in mind the intent of the americans are to help not hurt..

imo..stop knocking the only country whos trying to prevent a world war..and dont tell me that the americans started it..oh i get it.. let countries like Iraq get nukes so they can start launching them over to Israel and one day even their own people..just like they did with their bio weapons..how does one country intentionally hurt their own people..open your eyes people its not hard too see not what could happen but will..

Last edited by JPJH on Nov-08-2002 at 16:15

it is not that I don't like America, I am cool with American people

I just hate Americas foreign policy and some rules they have in the US itself (the right to bear arms for example)

and it is kinda logic that every thread in here is about America, that is because the only threads in this forum that are started are about America

guns in america
elections in america
bush this
bush that
US vs. Saddam

I really think that some of this issues have got nothing to do with the whole world, something like the elections and about the guns don't have to be here because it is something about the US only

Do you care about elections in Holland when they are held in about 2 months?? I don't think so, so I won't post a thread about it here

leave the regional politic stuff in the regional forum, and keep the global issues in this forum

___________________
Alsof Het G*dverdomme Himmel Niks Kost!!!

Cyrus King, You are the most naive person I've met thus far when it comes to political affairs.

First of all the US DID announce why they blew up the supposed "pharmacutical plant." It was because they were producing biological weapons. They had satilite photos, they had alot of hard evidence for this. They blew up no civilians in that bombing and they succeded in destroying a biological weapons plant. Wether or not there were actual meications in the building is very beside the point, considering they should have had the money for extra medications if they were producing weapons. And you son't think they would produce wapons if they are poor? LMAO, umm, ok, keep beleiving that!

And that car bomb was not strategically placed to kill as many civilians as possible. That is ludicrous. We did not suceed in our goal of killing the terrorist leader, but damn, one missed. Come on.

The intelligence spent every day on keeping civilians in other countries safe is ridiculous. I fail to see why we even waste this intelligence if we are going to be critisized for doing the opposite of what we actually do. Lets just start dropping random bombs now and see the difference assholes.

___________________
"Oh NO! It seems the world has been infected by a disease called shitty music.
We've had innocculations for some time now but the populace keeps refusing it.
You don't want it? Fine. Give me all the vaccine and a needle and I'll fucking overdose.
It'll be the best day of my life."

My first and probaley my only post in this room….

But I think ANYONE who indulges themselves in these hate filled challenging conversations, such as I have witnessed since the political room was started, is wasting there time trying to convince one an another that he/she lives in a country that is problem free.

Granted the U.S. has issues…noone can deny that. Whether our government is justified in their actions or not remains to be seen. In the past we have taken extreme measures to accomplish certain goals, does that mean we are wrong?

Doesn’t the ends sometimes justify the means?..atleast in SOME cases?

Now you people can argue back and forth the EXACT SAME arguments that where held in the Chill Out Room in the past over and over again, to your heart’s desire. But where is it getting you?…what are you accomplishing?….you will not change each others minds, especialler through the internet. Maybe in person with a verbal conversation, but in noway will your beleifs or facts get through to someone on the other side of that phone or cable connection…sorry wont happen.

American bashing has been the “norm” on TA for some time now…why? I don’t know. Each and every country with an established government has flaws. So why is that America is the cool one to bash? Well I “think” that is because we are basicaly the only super-power left and everyone knows the person with most power is also the most critizied. I know we are not perfect, but neither are you.

Maybe bombing Iraq is wrong to YOU…but I can tell you this from my opinion. If bombing Iraq prevents another terrorist attack, like the one I witnessed on 9.11 then I am all for it. I might add that I saw the attacks on America that day with my OWN eyes, not on the news, not in a magazine and not from a far. I was less then 2 miles away. I know that other countries (that some of you may live in) experience these sort of attacks on some scale or another and may or may not have great sympathey for us because you deal with them day in and day out. But you must understand that we, like you, want to avoid anymore attacks…at all mean nessecary…..like I said the “ends soemtimes justify the means”…..

And before you ask the question of whether or not civilians must die to achieve the means…the answer unfortunatley might be yes. Ask yourself this..would you give up your life, or kill someone, if you knew that by doing this you can save hundreds, maybe thousands or maybe even millions?…I know, but that’s me.

Anyway enjoy your bashing, for this is not a room based on conversing. It is purely based on simple-minded views of the world that basicallyu have no say on this planet anyway…so happy trails on your quest to knowledge and self-worth aswell as patriotism through hatred.

And remember look in your OWN backyard and examine it carefully before you complain about your neighbors…you might just find that you have a few cleaning up to do aswell.

___________________
Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 Anyway enjoy your bashing, for this is not a room based on conversing. It is purely based on simple-minded views of the world that basicallyu have no say on this planet anyway…so happy trails on your quest to knowledge and self-worth aswell as patriotism through hatred.

so true. i'm outta here as well. this room is a waste of time, it's just as fun to go to other rooms and spam, cos it's not valuable to me to try to go post some intelligent stuff anyways

>JM<

quote:

Originally posted by SpykeChyld Cyrus King, You are the most naive person I've met thus far when it comes to political affairs. First of all the US DID announce why they blew up the supposed "pharmacutical plant." It was because they were producing biological weapons. They had satilite photos, they had alot of hard evidence for this. They blew up no civilians in that bombing and they succeded in destroying a biological weapons plant. Wether or not there were actual meications in the building is very beside the point, considering they should have had the money for extra medications if they were producing weapons. And you son't think they would produce wapons if they are poor? LMAO, umm, ok, keep beleiving that! And that car bomb was not strategically placed to kill as many civilians as possible. That is ludicrous. We did not suceed in our goal of killing the terrorist leader, but damn, one missed. Come on. The intelligence spent every day on keeping civilians in other countries safe is ridiculous. I fail to see why we even waste this intelligence if we are going to be critisized for doing the opposite of what we actually do. Lets just start dropping random bombs now and see the difference assholes.

LOL... you obviously have been influenced by the ridiculous patriotic indoctrination of your government.....THOUSANDS of people died after that bombing ...and not DIRECTLY... they died becuase the only pharmeceatical plant that kept them alive was blown up...that biological weapons making bull shit is the only excuse that your government seems to often use.. becuase people in America will see that as "justified" even though they dont know the affects of that bombing.

And why is that Bierut car bombing "ludicrous"? Is the international court lidicrous as well for charging your nation with terrorist activities? And might i add that you are the only nation thus far to be given that charge? Are you going to sit there and denounce the International court?

And my sources are not from my hatred,, they are from respected linguists like Chomsky and organization like Amnesty international.

I am just stating what i know about the actions of your murderous government. I dont care if it was an indian, italian, german, or chinese government, these are things that happened, so dont think im criticizing the U.S government becuase it is the U.S government. I just look at the facts... something which you need to do..stop watching CNN

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 Anyway enjoy your bashing, for this is not a room based on conversing. It is purely based on simple-minded views of the world that basicallyu have no say on this planet anyway…so happy trails on your quest to knowledge and self-worth aswell as patriotism through hatred.

How ironic, that you yourself do not take a stance on the questions posed by Renegade (and on that note, I'm disappointed in Juricimo for starting a thread and not following through on the answers!). When somebody tries to post a logic and reasonable post it is being ignored! Absolutely pathetic!
This post of yours have proven that you, no matter your re-invented indulgent attitude, is still the same rash person. Take a look at the posts of trancedfarmer, Arbiter, biznology and - of course - my best friend ABT for some examples on how to participate in a discussion in a mature and thoughtful manner.

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Before this conversation degenerates into another USA vs The World flamewar, replete with over-emotional, poorly thought out comments, I've just got a couple of things to say. Seeing as I'm presumably one of the people you're talking about here, I'll just say this: I am not anti-US. I have issues with a number of US foreign policies - I'm pretty sure I've made that clear - but I'm not exactly certain why any American citizen should feel the need take this so personally. I have no problems with the US people. I have no inherent problem with the US government. I have no problems with the country as a whole. When I speak out against an activity undertaken by the US government, I do so after judging it on its own merits. I do not condemn these actions merely because they were undertaken by the US (because some seem to think that I feel the need to criticize the US at any opportunity) I criticize them because, from my position, they were made in poor judgement. I also readily acknowledge that the US government has made some very good decisions in the past, so it's not as though I can be accused of criticizing the US government merely because it's the US government. By the same tokein, should I disagree with the undertakings of any other government, I'll be happy to make myself known on that as well. I could go on for hours about the things that John Howard (prime-minister of Australia for those wondering) has done that I feel are wrong. If any of you raised issue with the poor judgement of the Australian government, I would not sit back and shout "anti-Australian!" I would - in all likelihood, probably agree with you: I'm smart enough to know that I am not defined in terms of the activity my country undertakes. If my government screws-up, and the rest of the world notices, I will not take personal offence to the ensueing criticism, I'll judge the criticism objectively and see if there is any truth in it. If Australia fucks up (and it has) I'll be the first in queue at the complaints line. I suppose all I really want to know is this: why is it that so many of the Americans on this board (not all) take criticism of their nation so personally? Is it the fundamentalistic patriotism that is driven into you by your government and other instituations? Is it important to think that you are a citizen of an infallible, perfect nation? Do you not think that criticism levelled at any government is crucial in keeping it in check? So long as American citizens continue to accept governmental policy as infallible to the extent that any criticism levelled at it is either entirely false or offensive (usually both), poor judegments will continue. The most important thing that the citizen of any country can do is to criticise it: that is how things get changed, and is how the country evolves over time. To ignore criticism, or to refuse to make any (under the misapprehension that the blind acceptance of nationalistic policy is the "patriotic" and therefore the right thing to do) is dangerous. Regardless of the nation it watches over, no government is always right and this must be acknowledged. If feeling this way makes me "anti-American" then so be it. Sorry mate, but that is a pretty poor call. Do you think the Australian government incites anti-American sentiment? John Howard may as well be bed fellows with George Bush, given the way he accepts and blindly follows American policy, and then attempts to sell it to the Australian public. But really, what you're trying to get at, is that - a priori - any criticism levelled at the US is untrue, and could therefore only be fuelled by ignorance or fabricated propoganda. As much as I hesitate to say this given the thin line I'm already treading, that attitude more or less sums up what is wrong with the US perspective as a whole. If what is being said is nonsense, then all you need do is rebuke them with concrete fact. There's no need to winge, just merely point out where the argument fails, and leave it. While ABT (among others) attempts this line (and he does a good job of it too) far to many of the US posters - more so than anyone from the rest of the world - retreat into emotional, patriotic speil when faced with "anti-US" criticism. If the argument is fallicious, then point out where. If you can't find fault with the argument, then there may well be some truth in it. That's how discussions are supposed to work: impart and learn. It's not about picking a side and fighting to death for it, it's about starting with a contention, and then - through dialect with others - deciding what is true and what is not. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis: Hegelian poetry in motion. That is where substantial truth is uncovered and fallicies are shown up. That's how we progress. There have been some comments made over time, that I agree, are poorly thought out and could easily be construed as flame-bait or mud-raking. However, I would suggest that the majority of "anti-US" posts (in your words) are well thought-out and replete with facts and valid arguments. On the other hand, accusing someone of being wrong merely because they are anti-US (a statement brandished far too readily) is not an argument, nor does it adequately dismiss the point being made. If you want to believe in your own perfection, that your view-point could never be wrong, then so be it. Just don't bother participating in discussions, that should be used to allow you to understand the opposing view-point, rather than to just immediately dismiss and mechanically rebut any argument that doesn't fit into your world-view. I've been wrong before, and I will continue to be wrong in the future. But I'm open-minded enough to know that I don't know enough about anything, to believe I know everything. What's your point? If I criticise the US for something, do you automatically take that to mean that I wish for my country to be disassociated from the US entirely? As I've said before, the US have done many good things for this planet, but it would be wrong to assume that this admission precludes me from criticising past, present or future decisions. Australia quite clearly does have a very strong dependence on the US. Does that mean I have an obligation to accept anything the US does as gospel truth? Does that go anyway to justifying it then? Or what they did in Chile? Or what they plan to do in Iraq? Can the murder of innocents be justified so long as US self-interest is preserved? In violation of international law I may add. Six-hundered foreign nationals locked up in a prison camp in Cuba for the past 12 months, without the right to trial that had amnesty international up in arms? Anyway, I think I've said enough. Please do not get offended by anything I've said here, because it's certainly not what I'm trying to do. None of this was targetted at anyone specifically, nor was the slightly angry, impatient tone intentional. It's just that I've felt like I've had this conversation a million times before. If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading.

I think that, that is the single best post i have ever read on my five years on the internet. thank you renegade.

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Before this conversation degenerates into another USA vs The World flamewar, replete with over-emotional, poorly thought out comments, I've just got a couple of things to say. Seeing as I'm presumably one of the people you're talking about here, I'll just say this: I am not anti-US. I have issues with a number of US foreign policies - I'm pretty sure I've made that clear - but I'm not exactly certain why any American citizen should feel the need take this so personally. I have no problems with the US people. I have no inherent problem with the US government. I have no problems with the country as a whole. When I speak out against an activity undertaken by the US government, I do so after judging it on its own merits. I do not condemn these actions merely because they were undertaken by the US (because some seem to think that I feel the need to criticize the US at any opportunity) I criticize them because, from my position, they were made in poor judgement. I also readily acknowledge that the US government has made some very good decisions in the past, so it's not as though I can be accused of criticizing the US government merely because it's the US government. By the same tokein, should I disagree with the undertakings of any other government, I'll be happy to make myself known on that as well. I could go on for hours about the things that John Howard (prime-minister of Australia for those wondering) has done that I feel are wrong. If any of you raised issue with the poor judgement of the Australian government, I would not sit back and shout "anti-Australian!" I would - in all likelihood, probably agree with you: I'm smart enough to know that I am not defined in terms of the activity my country undertakes. If my government screws-up, and the rest of the world notices, I will not take personal offence to the ensueing criticism, I'll judge the criticism objectively and see if there is any truth in it. If Australia fucks up (and it has) I'll be the first in queue at the complaints line. I suppose all I really want to know is this: why is it that so many of the Americans on this board (not all) take criticism of their nation so personally? Is it the fundamentalistic patriotism that is driven into you by your government and other instituations? Is it important to think that you are a citizen of an infallible, perfect nation? Do you not think that criticism levelled at any government is crucial in keeping it in check? So long as American citizens continue to accept governmental policy as infallible to the extent that any criticism levelled at it is either entirely false or offensive (usually both), poor judegments will continue. The most important thing that the citizen of any country can do is to criticise it: that is how things get changed, and is how the country evolves over time. To ignore criticism, or to refuse to make any (under the misapprehension that the blind acceptance of nationalistic policy is the "patriotic" and therefore the right thing to do) is dangerous. Regardless of the nation it watches over, no government is always right and this must be acknowledged. If feeling this way makes me "anti-American" then so be it. Sorry mate, but that is a pretty poor call. Do you think the Australian government incites anti-American sentiment? John Howard may as well be bed fellows with George Bush, given the way he accepts and blindly follows American policy, and then attempts to sell it to the Australian public. But really, what you're trying to get at, is that - a priori - any criticism levelled at the US is untrue, and could therefore only be fuelled by ignorance or fabricated propoganda. As much as I hesitate to say this given the thin line I'm already treading, that attitude more or less sums up what is wrong with the US perspective as a whole. If what is being said is nonsense, then all you need do is rebuke them with concrete fact. There's no need to winge, just merely point out where the argument fails, and leave it. While ABT (among others) attempts this line (and he does a good job of it too) far to many of the US posters - more so than anyone from the rest of the world - retreat into emotional, patriotic speil when faced with "anti-US" criticism. If the argument is fallicious, then point out where. If you can't find fault with the argument, then there may well be some truth in it. That's how discussions are supposed to work: impart and learn. It's not about picking a side and fighting to death for it, it's about starting with a contention, and then - through dialect with others - deciding what is true and what is not. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis: Hegelian poetry in motion. That is where substantial truth is uncovered and fallicies are shown up. That's how we progress. There have been some comments made over time, that I agree, are poorly thought out and could easily be construed as flame-bait or mud-raking. However, I would suggest that the majority of "anti-US" posts (in your words) are well thought-out and replete with facts and valid arguments. On the other hand, accusing someone of being wrong merely because they are anti-US (a statement brandished far too readily) is not an argument, nor does it adequately dismiss the point being made. If you want to believe in your own perfection, that your view-point could never be wrong, then so be it. Just don't bother participating in discussions, that should be used to allow you to understand the opposing view-point, rather than to just immediately dismiss and mechanically rebut any argument that doesn't fit into your world-view. I've been wrong before, and I will continue to be wrong in the future. But I'm open-minded enough to know that I don't know enough about anything, to believe I know everything. What's your point? If I criticise the US for something, do you automatically take that to mean that I wish for my country to be disassociated from the US entirely? As I've said before, the US have done many good things for this planet, but it would be wrong to assume that this admission precludes me from criticising past, present or future decisions. Australia quite clearly does have a very strong dependence on the US. Does that mean I have an obligation to accept anything the US does as gospel truth? Does that go anyway to justifying it then? Or what they did in Chile? Or what they plan to do in Iraq? Can the murder of innocents be justified so long as US self-interest is preserved? In violation of international law I may add. Six-hundered foreign nationals locked up in a prison camp in Cuba for the past 12 months, without the right to trial that had amnesty international up in arms? Anyway, I think I've said enough. Please do not get offended by anything I've said here, because it's certainly not what I'm trying to do. None of this was targetted at anyone specifically, nor was the slightly angry, impatient tone intentional. It's just that I've felt like I've had this conversation a million times before. If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Perfect post Renegade.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic I'm disappointed in Juricimo for starting a thread and not following through on the answers!). When somebody tries to post a logic and reasonable post it is being ignored! Absolutely pathetic! ...trancedfarmer, Arbiter, biznology and - of course - my best friend ABT for some examples on how to participate in a discussion in a mature and thoughtful manner.

yep. that's about right - less than 10 intelligent posters in here and most of them included above. why bother when the other 80% of the posts are flames... there is no reason for me to reply to the intelligent posts in this thread either. i was simply stating my opinions, and asked for others opinions regarding the same matter.

i'll leave it at that for now.

>JM<

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic This post of yours have proven that you, no matter your re-invented indulgent attitude, is still the same rash person. Take a look at the posts of trancedfarmer, Arbiter, biznology and - of course - my best friend ABT for some examples on how to participate in a discussion in a mature and thoughtful manner.

yes i saw their posts...yet what have they accomplished?

absolutley nothing....not that they are wrong or even right...just that they are participating in a conversation that ultimatley leads them nowhere.Each one of the people you mentioned has shown proof for their beleifs with facts, yet they are still disbeleived. So you tell me the reasoning beyind it all. What are you looking to gain through argueing about things when each side calls the other ignorant or say that their evidence for their beleifs is wrong. Seems kind of like 2 litte kids in a school yard after a fight who get caught by their teacher, and says "he started it" and the other says 'no he started it"...useless

You say i was "rash"....hhhmmm i don't beleive i was...

These discussions go nowhere. Never have. Never will.

Like i said look in your OWN backyards before you talk about your neighbors.

A

___________________
Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 yes i saw their posts...yet what have they accomplished?

That I have taken their views to me, and when I debate with people around me, I can offer a more varied perspective on things.

When discussing the Iraq problem, for example, people around me often equates Bush and the US-people, and they often debate from a viewpoint where the US is the great devil. Having discussed this topic in these forums allows me to point out that some US-citizens are *not* pro-Bush and that the intentions of those who are are not necessarily selfishness.

Likewise, I hope some of the USTAs are keeping my points in mind when/if they debate with their countrymen.

I really don't see why having the debate in an Internet forum rather than in real life, makes it impossible to change peoples perception by logical arguments?