quote:

Originally posted by trancedfarmer Granted there are many who use pacifism as an excuse not to go into the army and what not, but they are still abstaining from violence, which is rarely productive.

Ironically these are the people you see throwing rocks and stones at the riot squads during their peace protests...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Some problems cannot be solved with violence.
Some problems cannot be solved without violence.

Anyone who believes that one can always adhere to one single mechanism for solving problems and consistently be successful is a fool.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Some problems cannot be solved with violence. Some problems cannot be solved without violence. Anyone who believes that one can always adhere to one single mechanism for solving problems and consistently be successful is a fool.

Yeah War is a perfect example of this.. history shows it

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Some problems cannot be solved with violence. Some problems cannot be solved without violence.

I'm sorry, but can you give some examples of problems that can't be solved by voilence?

I don't argue with this thesis, I just need more proof to believe it... some countering examples will do I'm sure to convience me.

"pasifism only works when you have a big pile of weapons & ammo behind you"

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike i guess this is just a matter of opinion then. I believe to refuse to fight for your nation is rather cowardly.

If it is a democratic, free nation then I most certainly agree. Regardless of my feelings on an issue, a government cannot function if everybody has the option to pick and choose what they can and cannot do. It's extremely selfish to participate in the luxuries an organized nation brings about and then second guess that country's actions and refuse service for your own self-interests. If you feel that what that country is doing is wrong then feel free to protest or vote to make a difference. If you still cannot come to terms with your situation then feel free to move to a country that shares your beliefs. If you're too intoxicated by the wealth and opportunity that your country provides to move away then don't bitch at the sacrifices that come with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I'm sorry, but can you give some examples of problems that can't be solved by voilence? I don't argue with this thesis, I just need more proof to believe it... some countering examples will do I'm sure to convience me.

Ok, well just off of the top of my head, suppose you wanted your mother to do something really badly, because you believed it to be in her best interest, but for whatever reason, she continually refused.

Presuming you would be unwilling to harm your mother, and since the solution you are seeking to the problem is her best interests anyway (which would not include being harmed), you cannot solve this problem by violence.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Ok, well just off of the top of my head, suppose you wanted your mother to do something really badly, because you believed it to be in her best interest, but for whatever reason, she continually refused. Presuming you would be unwilling to harm your mother, and since the solution you are seeking to the problem is her best interests anyway (which would not include being harmed), you cannot solve this problem by violence.

Ok, well playing devil's advocate with this very bad hypothetical situation I can say this.

I might use some violence against my mother in such case. The above example, sort of leads me to think of a scenario where my mother is mentally sick, and therefore incapable of comprehending what is in her best interest (seeing a psych), so if I would be required to hit or restrain her, I would do this.

Obviously I would not kill her, but not all violence must be absolute, so therefore if I would be required to restrain her, to take her to a psych then I would.

Try again.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Ok, well playing devil's advocate with this very bad hypothetical situation I can say this. I might use some violence against my mother in such case. The above example, sort of leads me to think of a scenario where my mother is mentally sick, and therefore incapable of comprehending what is in her best interest (seeing a psych), so if I would be required to hit or restrain her, I would do this. Obviously I would not kill her, but not all violence must be absolute, so therefore if I would be required to restrain her, to take her to a psych then I would. Try again.

Well that might work, but there's little a psychologist can do with a patient who is unwilling to cooperate mentally to such an extent as is necessary for a proper diagnosis and treatment. Even if you could physically transport her to the psychologist by employing measured violence, it wouldn't solve the problem unless she could be persuaded to "connect" with the psych on the level that would allow him to perform his job.

when i was in high school, the military had representitives that came in every once in a while ( all too often in my opinion) to try and convert you folks into joining there regime! (yep it is) I went up to one of them once cause he had said something to me and talked about war and pacifism for a while and he was very agressive. he asked me that if my a someone was in my home trying to kill my family, and i could stop them, would i? i told him no, because i did not value one human life over another, and any attachment to those people in particular would be selfish and missing the point. i do not know if my response is the same now. id probably try to knock the guy out hard enough to keep him from killing them... hehe