quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Who lived there before those 1000 years, never having consentually departed? [Moral]

and who lived there a 1000 years before? how about 2000 years? how about 4000 years or 6000 years!!! look at Kosovo and Serbia, Serbs were a majority 400 years ago, but now its not the case... when the Serbs started some shit about retakin ownership they got bombed. Talking about double standards.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Who legally owned that land as a colony prior to the existence of Israel? [Legal]

yep barely 4% of the land and owning a land doesn't mean you can declare independance... try doing that with the backyard lot you have, its yours all right!!

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Please argue it!

Well, for starters, there is this:

http://www.fair.org/activism/psyops-response.html

just found that on a quick search. I admit, it's not very conclusive proof that cnn is on the govt payroll, interestingly similar to how i don't think CNN's document is conclusive proof that arafat supports terrorism. most likely, both are true though, imo at least to some extent. i don't have time to search around more, but in general CNN has been known to provide a "pentagons eye view" of the world. apparently someone has started a website http://www.cnn-sucks.org attempting to compile such information.

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Originally posted by Yoepus You seem to have a common preconcieved distrust.

sort of. i have what i like to call, optimistic trust. i trust everyone, until they give me a reason not to. in my opinion, the govts of canada, britain, australia etc have all let me down through some scandal or another. and the govt of america, the WORST and most damaging scandals to innocent people world wide. this is where my distrust comes from, it did not spring up out of nowhere.

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Originally posted by Yoepus You refusing to visit IDF sites on the notion that you believe them to be "false and pure propoganda" (and I'm paraphrasing),

BADLY paraphrasing! i said propaganda, pure and simple, not FALSE and propaganda. in fact, that's a contradiction in terms, propaganda is by definition, not false ( The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause. ) i'm sure that the idf website has true information, i don't accuse them of being liars. however, i'd hardly call them the most impartial source of info on the situation in the middle east.

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Originally posted by Yoepus will never help you achieve the truth of the situation. You must examine the links, review the content, use logic and rational, and then contend, is this true?

i have, I do, and i will continue to do so.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Just as I am sure that you believe whitehouse.gov, and cia.gov web posts are not inaccurate, as well as your Canadain ministries informational web sites, why then would you radically disbelieve anything Israeli ministries say when they submit such information?

well the double negative is confusing. not innacurate? so you are implying that i think that everything on government websites IS accurate then? no, i certainly don't. some is misleading, some is outright false, either through being outdated, incorrect, or incomplete. as well, important facts are often left out, to portray the image of the world the govt wants you to see.

do i blame them for this? no. i have an antiwar website, do i promote the pro war view for completeness sake? no of course not, i have a goal, i want to convince people to be antiwar, and i do the best i can. govt websites do their best to steer their people in a way they would like them to go, and i don't blame them for this either. however, when i want to find a comprehensive facts on something, i don't put much stock in addresses ending with .gov, or ESPECIALLY .mil

especially when the govt in question has manifest reason to make me want to believe one side of the story, as is the case in israels claims about arafat.

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Originally posted by Yoepus I am still suprised, how often you submit links to uncredible sites on this forum you believe, such as independent media, with no incentive for credibility, and you disagree with information coming from the words of some government, which carries their honor, reputation, and respect to their people, and people across the world, with great incentive not to be caught lying, or fabricating truths. Its just simply hypocritical and irrational.

I would argue that indy media, or ANY media for that matter has just as much incentive to not be caught fabricating truths or lying.

on the subjeft of uncredible sites, i ask where do you get your information? what is credible these days? i get my info from a variety of sources, some of them proper journalism, some opinion, some statistical facts, some govt sites, and try to piece it all together. i find it's the best way.

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Last edited by JohnSmith on Jan-28-2003 at 06:10

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Originally posted by Arbiter 2. They, as an ethnic group, have chosen a mechanism for obtaining redress of their concerns [that being, terrorism], which is so immoral as to require the denial of whatever requests they are making, regardless of the extent to which those requests are justifiable.

Here, I have to disagree:
1. You generalize. They as an *ethnic group* are surely NOT Terrorists. Even if there was a 95% support for terrorism among the Palestinian people your statement would be wrong.
(according to the latest polls its somewhere around 73%)
2. More importantly: To make peace, is by definition to FORGIVE. You make peace with enemies, not with friends. However, such acts only make sense provided that the oppostie side indeed intends to cease violence. So, if it was clear that the Arab side was to end all terrorist/brainwashing activities, in order to reach an agreement you would HAVE to forgive.
Currently, though, we're faaaaaaaaaaaaaar away from that point.

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to back John Smith up, I believe Rupert Murdoch owns Fox News? and a large number of Western television channels, newspapers etc..., and Rupert Murdoch was one of the biggest contributors to George W. Bush's campaign (yet again I must point out if Fox News hadn't have announced Bush's victory, he wouldn't be in power). The only news channel that has in any way trustworthy news is the BBC (ask Michael Moore )
anyway.....
Trancegiant, I hardly think I was being "so fucking stupid" as you so elegantly put it. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but there is a distinct possibility Sharon will face charges for 2 War Crimes (Between June 4 and Aug. 31, 1982, the IDF, under Sharon's direction, being Minister of Defense at the time, killed a total of 19,025 Palestinians and wounded 30,032. And the horrific events of April 2002 in Jenin). There is also evidence that Sharon had connections with the man that assassinated Yitzhak Rabin, that military groups Sharon founded orchestrated "terrorist" attacks against the Jewish people to sway public opinion.
The thing that scares me most is that so many young Israeli's are so unbelievably right wing, and can support this monster, but this scares me more

quote:

Ariel Sharon Israeli Prime Minister Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001 “Every time we do something you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

and Yoepus, don't call me fucking stupid, you seem to be preaching peace, but you've got a tank in your avatar? get a grip

Az you're simply hilarious!

edit: okay, i cant just leave it with that...
Let me add that all of your (evidently wrong) "arguments" sound very familiar to me, as some1 who has spent plenty of time investigating the the accusations of each party and their originis.

your "quote" is a faked propaganda "quote" by neonazis.
Here, my friend, is a nice website (special tip: Scroll down to those wonderful links!) with points that could have come out of your mouth
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/zionazis/ArielSharonTerrorist.html


You see, allegedly "left" peacemakers, especially in the israeli case, are mostly ugly antisemitic bastards.

edit²: OMG, your quote is right up there, at the top

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Last edited by TranceGiant on Jan-28-2003 at 19:38

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Originally posted by Az and Yoepus, don't call me fucking stupid, you seem to be preaching peace, but you've got a tank in your avatar? get a grip

hahahahahah i always had that in mind...

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quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant You see, allegedly "left" peacemakers, especially in the israeli case, are mostly ugly antisemitic bastards.

how did I know someone would say that
get a fucking grip, accusing someone of being Anti-semitic because they strongly disagree with Israels current political situation is retarded, but unfortuneately seems to happen a lot, for whatever reason. The quote by Sharon speaking of America was sent to me by e-mail by my Israeli general studies teacher, as it was reported by the Daily Telegraph in the UK two days after it was said. But then again if thats wrong, so must be invasion of the lebonese refugee camps in 1982, or Jenin last year? oh wait.....
ffs

quote:

Originally posted by Az Yoepus, don't call me fucking stupid, you seem to be preaching peace, but you've got a tank in your avatar? get a grip

If I have a pantagram as my avatar I must be a follower of Satan.
If I have an animation of a cartoon blowing up in my sig I probably love it when men blow up ...



Why ofcourse!

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quote:

Originally posted by oDrori If I have a pantagram as my avatar I must be a follower of Satan. If I have an animation of a cartoon blowing up in my sig I probably love it when men blow up ... Why ofcourse!

oDrori sort it out, stop being so pedantic......
and by the way you've just got a red cross in your sig

Look by reading your posts I encounter such a great lack of historical knowledge, and such a stubborn attitude, that I highly doubt that any comment from my side will change a thing. Therefore I'll keep it short and to the point.


1. I accuse you of being paranoid, now that I see how you interpreted my post as an antisemitism accusation towards YOU. It was not my intention to do that. What i did point out, was that almost all of your arguments are brought up by extremists, be they left or right wing extremists (which eventually is the same). I'd suggest that you carefully consider what you say before you do so. Hitler-comparisons and generalizations demonstrate a biased,uninformed,hatred-filled attitude. If you think that your comparing Hitler with Sharon affects me in the sense of defending Israel's prime minister, you're wrong. Call himf fat pig, murderer, whatever (or just buy an Arab newspaper and scan it--same effect). BUT comparing ANYBODY with Hitler is a relativation of Hitler's crimes. Why, at all, comparing? And why particularly with Hitler? Do you and the rest who do so( I know, it's a "trend" also practiced in the America "criticism") find amusement in the irony of equalizing a Jew with Hitler (whose relation to Jewsshould be well known?). Do you think that comparing some1 with Hitler will make your arguments any stronger or more credible? Why not compare him with Stalin? Mussolini? Napoleon? Why picking the most evil mother****** in history and not others who'd better fit into such a comparison (dimensions wise).
I find that trend of comparing Hitler with Bush Sharon and whoever else annoys us nowadays extremely disturbing. It worries me cause one day it'll become exhausted and we'll compare little shoplifters with Hitler too, hm ? I read a pretty interesting article concerning this phenomenen, which stated that in a secular world we live in Devil-comparions don't impress anymore. So, Hitler, without thinking further and taking the horrible consequences and the moral dilemma into consideration, was soonly adapted as a "secular" more "recent" substitution.
for fuck's sake..that's irrelevant here actually. Hehe so back to the "topic"

Oh right, I could write much longer essays on the antisemitism - israel criticism problem..but..Ill make it some other time. Let's just say that many israel critiques use antisemitc stereotypes (the media included) without knowing, and also, that many indeed hide antisemitms behind the israel-criticism mask. And to confuse(or annoy) you totally I'll add that even anti-americanism has antisemitc origins. In fact I believe that what sexuality is to the human behavior (a huge determining subconscious aspect) antisemitsm is to the modern European's political perception.

2. As for the quote: The only time I've heared about it was through browsing neonazi-site like zundelsite.org and other extremist websites such as the one I linked too previously. I cannot believe that Sharon said EXACTELY what is quoted here, simply because there's no chance it wouldn't have caused huge protest or at least wide attention throughout the world. The media just waits for such statements ( i remember how german newspapers transformed Sharon's announcment of a "great offensive" into a "total war", thereby creating a analogy to the famous Nazi "total war"), so it's really hard to believe he said those words.

3. as for Sharon: He was the military leader of the 1982 war against the PLO in Beirut. A war like any other in the history of mankind and another example of the typical middle east mechanism of arab action and israeli reaction. The PLO under Araft's rule was back then situated in Lebanon's capital, Beirut. After getting their ass kicked by Jordan (where they just caused instability and trouble, having launched several attacks against israel) they were now attacking Northern Israel with Rockets launched in Lebanon (speaking of which, the European "left" movement had nothing better to do than being tourists in those famous Beirut camps, practicing with the Terrorists etc. etc.). Anyway, the Palestinians once again provoked Israel too much and a war was declared. I don't see any war crime in that. [Just think back to 1973 when the Arab nations suddenly decided it was once again time to wipe out Israel and invaded on Jom Kippur(a chirstmas like holidy for Jews, in terms of importance)].
So what YOU are alluding to is the old story of Sabra and Shatila. I'll make this one really short as I've said it dozens of times before: A Christians Lebanese milita killed Muslim Refugees. Sharon who controlled this area let them go in in order to kill Terrorists only. As we know, they killed them all. Now what you CAN accuse sharon of is lack of responsibility, or the fact that "he should've been more suspicious". Well, you won't believe it, but an Israeli commission said exactely that thing, kicking him out of the office. That's it, he Prime Minister now. No war crimes, no massacres, but surely a black mark on a already not so white shirt.
Nobody says Sharon's an angel, but neither was Rabin, neither was Peres (do you know that Peres, the so called dove of peace, was responsible of a massacre of more then 100 arabs in 1996?)neither was Begin. However they all changed, and even Sharon did. Arafat ,however, (a guy resposible of killings of Jews and Israelis from Buenos Airs through Rome to Tel Aviv) has not changed. Yet he's never critcized.

4. The Jenin Massacre is a myth. Even the Palestinians themselves have addimted to it. 23 Israeli soldiers were killed in Jenin, 5 Palestinian civilians, 20+ Palestinain gunmen. Nope, this is not what i'd classify as a Massacre.

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seems the british public was misled about Jenin, there was a big fuss about the "massacre", not much fuss when it was revised down to 56...
as for Peres and Rabin I can't comment, but it seems as if Rabin was the only person that was getting the middle east on track, with amicable solutions......
as for the war crimes, I believe Slobodan Milosevic is being tried for similar atrocities on a larger scale, and I'm pretty sure that was during a war