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Originally posted by montie WHO ARE YOU? The United States has killed thousands of innocent civilians. You don't think that the muslims in the middle east just hate us because they are pure evil? The United States is constantly bombing targets in the No Fly zone in Iraq. There have been numerous times when they "missed" their target and killed innocent civilians. Not to mention during the Gulf War we killed tons of civilians by accident, and also abandoned the iraqi people to whom we told we were trying to "liberate." And remeber just a few years ago when the whole Monica Lewinsky thing was going on. On the day of her testimony, Clinton decided to change the media attention and declared a "war on terror" and ended up firing missles at numerous targets including a phamaceutical factory killing some janitors. The list of times goes on and on. Just look at Vietnam. Just do a little research and you will see, America is no wonderful "good" country. The "evilness" goes all around. Oh and on the thing on the French killing Americans in WWII. Yes I did know that. Vichy france was a puppet government set up by the Nazis. The real French government w as in London at the time. Don't use that as an excuse to berate the French for not supporting our soon to be war with Iraq. It's sad. It seems this country is just going further and further down the crapper. I remember hearing a news story where some senators were calling for legislation to boycott french and german food because they don't support us. All this ignorance and pride reminds me of the state of mind of people in Germany during WW2 or the people in Germany, France and Britian before WW1

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Originally posted by montie WHO ARE YOU? The United States has killed thousands of innocent civilians. You don't think that the muslims in the middle east just hate us because they are pure evil? The United States is constantly bombing targets in the No Fly zone in Iraq. There have been numerous times when they "missed" their target and killed innocent civilians. Not to mention during the Gulf War we killed tons of civilians by accident, and also abandoned the iraqi people to whom we told we were trying to "liberate." And remeber just a few years ago when the whole Monica Lewinsky thing was going on. On the day of her testimony, Clinton decided to change the media attention and declared a "war on terror" and ended up firing missles at numerous targets including a phamaceutical factory killing some janitors. The list of times goes on and on. Just look at Vietnam. Just do a little research and you will see, America is no wonderful "good" country. The "evilness" goes all around.

And who the hell are you guy? This is the first posting I've seen of you in this forum. I don't dispute the fact that America has killed many innocent civilians. Much as I'm sure that a LOT of other countries have killed numerous innocent civilians over the past century as well. Except in your isolated eggshell the ONLY evildoer you see is the United States. Grow up. Oh so we purposely "missed" targets in bombing Iraqi air defense systems shooting at planes in the no fly zone??? Please tell me, what POSSIBLE beneficial result can come of us bombing innocent civilians???? I'll be waiting for your answer smart guy. In today's media where every single iota of collateral damage is analyzed and critisized, you think we would go out and kill inoccent civilians for our own fucking amusement???? What's your source, the Iraqi tribune?? USE LOGIC AND THINK THIS THROUGH. With regards to Monica Lewinsky and Clinton's attack on Sudan, why don't you present credible news sources and DO THE RESEARCH yourself to prove your point that the attack was COMPLETELY unrelated to the embassy bombings and was solely to divert world attention from the news scandal. Finally in no way did I PRETEND the US was innocent of any wrongdoing in this world. However I resent the remark that we killed "millions" of innocent civilians. If you're going to say something that's flat out stupid you might as well say nothing at all because you're exposing your own ignorance. Oh and examine the US's actions in Vietnam???? Ok fine and while you're at it why don't you examine "peace loving" France's role in Indochina in the 50's. Jesus christ people weren't NEARLY so goody goody with France when they were conducting nuclear tests by Australia in the 90's. Instead of giving me your diatribe of crap why don't you READ what I've said in the past and make intelligent conversation with me that actually APPLIES to me. I'm pissed, I'm semi-drunk, and now I'm gonna see armin. Hopefully I'll have something interesting to read in the mornging

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Originally posted by NFA actually, the country that has probably killed most americans is.... AMERICA!!! seeing the murder rate of it's disfunctional society, and the stunning record its forces have in friendly fire...

Don't foget the US Civil War.

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Originally posted by TuanAnh213 sorry...u belong in the humor room where u can post random crap in there all day without requiring much intelligence

fack u try to post something positive, never seen u post something positive somewhere

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Originally posted by NFA actually, the country that has probably killed most americans is.... AMERICA!!! seeing the murder rate of it's disfunctional society, and the stunning record its forces have in friendly fire... on the same level this stupid thread started from: did u know that the american airforce flatterend a whole city in switzerland in 1944? not only did a whole squadron hit the wrong target, or the wrong city, but the whole bloody country!!!!

Hey now ... let's not start picking fights here. I seem to recall a particularly disastrous offensive called Market Garden which was led by Monty and was fraught with ineptitude, incompetance, and arrogance. And the fact that our "stunning record" of casualties due to friendly fire stands out so much speaks VOLUMES as to our ability to completely dominate the battlefield such that the only significant losses we suffer are from our own troops.

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Originally posted by occrider And who the hell are you guy? This is the first posting I've seen of you in this forum. I don't dispute the fact that America has killed many innocent civilians. Much as I'm sure that a LOT of other countries have killed numerous innocent civilians over the past century as well. Except in your isolated eggshell the ONLY evildoer you see is the United States. Grow up. Oh so we purposely "missed" targets in bombing Iraqi air defense systems shooting at planes in the no fly zone??? Please tell me, what POSSIBLE beneficial result can come of us bombing innocent civilians???? I'll be waiting for your answer smart guy. In today's media where every single iota of collateral damage is analyzed and critisized, you think we would go out and kill inoccent civilians for our own fucking amusement???? What's your source, the Iraqi tribune?? USE LOGIC AND THINK THIS THROUGH. With regards to Monica Lewinsky and Clinton's attack on Sudan, why don't you present credible news sources and DO THE RESEARCH yourself to prove your point that the attack was COMPLETELY unrelated to the embassy bombings and was solely to divert world attention from the news scandal. Finally in no way did I PRETEND the US was innocent of any wrongdoing in this world. However I resent the remark that we killed "millions" of innocent civilians. If you're going to say something that's flat out stupid you might as well say nothing at all because you're exposing your own ignorance. Oh and examine the US's actions in Vietnam???? Ok fine and while you're at it why don't you examine "peace loving" France's role in Indochina in the 50's. Jesus christ people weren't NEARLY so goody goody with France when they were conducting nuclear tests by Australia in the 90's. Instead of giving me your diatribe of crap why don't you READ what I've said in the past and make intelligent conversation with me that actually APPLIES to me. I'm pissed, I'm semi-drunk, and now I'm gonna see armin. Hopefully I'll have something interesting to read in the mornging

wow temper temper.
I never said anything about america being the sole evildoer. Infact I said the "evilness goes all around." I didn't mean to express that America goes out to intentionally kill civilians. The fact remains that it does, they are the "collateral" damage that comes from America pursuing selfish goals, just like pretty much everyother country.
And I'll agree France commited quite a few atrocities in Indochina among other places.
How was Armin?

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Originally posted by occrider Hey now ... let's not start picking fights here. I seem to recall a particularly disastrous offensive called Market Garden which was led by Monty and was fraught with ineptitude, incompetance, and arrogance. And the fact that our "stunning record" of casualties due to friendly fire stands out so much speaks VOLUMES as to our ability to completely dominate the battlefield such that the only significant losses we suffer are from our own troops.

sorry, didn't mean to pick a fight. was just trying to point out that no country is squeaky clean, outside or in...

market garden... yes, not quite the most glorious of british military achievements...

oh, and b4 anyone picks on my 4 calling the US a disfunctional society, let me say that i believe the same about britain! as usual, i have to b a little provocative. the problem with message boards is that u're generally not writing a full paper, but at the same time u can't see the other person's body language as u do in a face 2 face debate. so it's quite hard to know when someone is talking tongue in cheak.

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NFA

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DROP PILLS NOT BOMBS

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Originally posted by arj1o1 u all now the americans killed millions of innocent people FUCK WAR

yeah... its true... i think they should hold a war crimes tribunal for the last three administrations that took military action in Iraq...

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Originally posted by montie wow temper temper. I never said anything about america being the sole evildoer. Infact I said the "evilness goes all around." I didn't mean to express that America goes out to intentionally kill civilians. The fact remains that it does, they are the "collateral" damage that comes from America pursuing selfish goals, just like pretty much everyother country. And I'll agree France commited quite a few atrocities in Indochina among other places. How was Armin?

Hehe sorry ... I was quite the drunk that night. Anyway I lash out whenever I think that the US is being unfairly picked on. True there are collateral damage in any war, however your quotes seemed to indicate that we target innocent cilivians in our reprisals against Iraqi SAM defenses. Anyway armin was awesome.

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Originally posted by occrider Hehe sorry ... I was quite the drunk that night. Anyway I lash out whenever I think that the US is being unfairly picked on. True there are collateral damage in any war, however your quotes seemed to indicate that we target innocent cilivians in our reprisals against Iraqi SAM defenses. Anyway armin was awesome.

no worries. I am a US citizen and i think that the US needs to be picked on a little more because it always seems to get what it wants and make itself look like it is the good guys when in reality it's being just as "evil" as the country its picking on. I'm not saying that any other country out there is better than the US and whatnot, nor that the US is some horrible country. I didn't mean to say that we target innocent civilians in Iraq, the fact remains though that we do kill hundreds if not thousands of them on accident along with keeping sactions on Iraq which indirectly (saddam does have a hand in making them hurt the people) hurt the civilians.
And now if we go to war with Iraq we will end up killing even more innocent civilians for what? Iraq isn't much of a threat to us. Not nearly as much as N. Korea or Pakistan. If we want to concentrate on getting rid of Pakistan, we need to deal with our "good friends" in pakistan.
Instead of focusing on these countries which have much more powerful armies than Iraq, we focus on attacking Iraq which everyone knows we can take out very quickly. If we attack them we will just end up hurting the civilians there, thus enraging the anti-american muslim population even more thus further provoking terrorists, we waste alot of money, we install a puppet government which main focus will be to support big businesses which will exploit the people like the big businesses there already do and which bring more money to american businesses such as ones owned by the Bush family. Also we take the risk of setting off a chain of events causing Isreal and Iran and all that other hooplah shit to go off to war.
sorry, im rambling here. This thread really wasn't about america and iraq.
anyway.
I've been wanting to see Armin for awhile. I don't think he comes to LA for a good while.

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Originally posted by montie no worries. I am a US citizen and i think that the US needs to be picked on a little more because it always seems to get what it wants and make itself look like it is the good guys when in reality it's being just as "evil" as the country its picking on. I'm not saying that any other country out there is better than the US and whatnot, nor that the US is some horrible country. I didn't mean to say that we target innocent civilians in Iraq, the fact remains though that we do kill hundreds if not thousands of them on accident along with keeping sactions on Iraq which indirectly (saddam does have a hand in making them hurt the people) hurt the civilians. And now if we go to war with Iraq we will end up killing even more innocent civilians for what? Iraq isn't much of a threat to us. Not nearly as much as N. Korea or Pakistan. If we want to concentrate on getting rid of Pakistan, we need to deal with our "good friends" in pakistan. Instead of focusing on these countries which have much more powerful armies than Iraq, we focus on attacking Iraq which everyone knows we can take out very quickly. If we attack them we will just end up hurting the civilians there, thus enraging the anti-american muslim population even more thus further provoking terrorists, we waste alot of money, we install a puppet government which main focus will be to support big businesses which will exploit the people like the big businesses there already do and which bring more money to american businesses such as ones owned by the Bush family. Also we take the risk of setting off a chain of events causing Isreal and Iran and all that other hooplah shit to go off to war. sorry, im rambling here. This thread really wasn't about america and iraq. anyway. I've been wanting to see Armin for awhile. I don't think he comes to LA for a good while.

Armin's set was off the hook. Definetely one of his better ones in a while ... can't wait to see Johann Gielen in March! Anyway I agree with you in certain points. If I were to talk about Iraq with a lot of people in the US I would most certainly have to speak against what I really believe in because a lot of people in the US are ignorant, pro-war fools. And I can't stand people who should know better. Whereas when I'm on these forums, I see that a lot of people unecessarily critisize and make false accusations against the US. Trust me ... on these forums the US is the underdog. I realize that the US is by no means "pure" but I love my country, I stand up for what I believe in, and I think a lot of people here can be very unfair to us. A lot of the bashing comes without the facts so I do my best to dispel as many myths and preconceptions as possible. With regards to the situation in Iraq, I've stated in the past that the whole situation is about oil. However, not in the sense that many believe. I don't think the US is "after" Iraq's oil. I think that the main objective is to obtain stablility in the region and prevent any disruption in the flow of oil to the rest of the world. I think that 9/11 has opened the US's eyes that we can be hurt and we can be impacted by the rest of the world. As such there is more of a concern to eliminate terrorist extremism and maintain world stability. I think our perspectives differ in that you view the US as going to war at any cost in order secure oil and get rid of Saddam. My viewpoint on the issue is that we issued an ultimatum to Iraq to comply unconditionally with the UN or face military repurcussions. Iraq's compliance has been splotchy and achieved through teh threat of force at best and the time to be pussyfooting around is over. Either they follow through with their treaty obligations or they face imminent attack. They WONT be provided with another opportunity to establish dictatorial dominance in the region again.