quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant The girl example is a perfect analogy to your way of "explaining" such inexcusable cruelities. And no, I don't really need to wank to my own logical analogies.

and how about the way u explain the cruelties of your beloved regime? not only do u explain it, u advocate more violence still. u r part of the problem, and u r no different than the terrorists and their political leaders u hate.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant As for the "NAZI" word: You simply didnt get my point. I said that your inflationairy use of "NAZI" leads to a loss of its (negative) "value". Just like with money, ya know? Imagine when some day "Nazi" will be used like "twat", having lost all its hisorical backround and its power. The power of remembering, The power of learning from the past! All that will be harmed if guys like you keep dropping these terms inappropiately and extensively. And on top of that you might and in fact surely do hurt many Jewish people's feelings when reaching the peak of perversion by comparing Jewish/Israelis to their own murderers from the past. And yes, some ppl deliberately take advantage of this perverse "irony". And it makes me sick.

ok, i take your point. but has it never occured to u that i was being provocative? it may hurt a few feelings, but maybe it will make a few right-wing tits reflect a little, and anlyze their thoughts/actions. i try to make ppl like u bloody stop it with this victim culture whereby they seem to think that because they have been victims of one of the most atrocious crimes (!not the only one) in history, they are justified in doing as they like in the conviction that they are right. u can be a victim of abuse, but that does not justify u abusing others. and that is what too many jews r doing. and who dares point this out is immediately an anti-semite. i was going to attach an article by david aaronvitch (a jew), who explains this very well, but the website is donwn at the mo.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant I'm waiting for your elaboration concerning Sharon's "nazi" nature. I'm even more eager to hear how you're able to condemn Sharon while not mentioning Arafat a single time. Smells like bias.

sharon's war crimes r well documented. if u choose to ignore them, then u will.
and i HAVE mentioned arafat. i think he's a wanker, a fanatic, a despot and a terrorist, and i've said so many times. the sooner he goes the better. u smell bias? that's 'coz u want to smell bias.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant I repeat: Even if you claim to merely look for the "real reason" behind terrorism, you ultimately reward it by assuming a logical explanation which ALWAYS ends up in justification! What has a logical explanation is logical and therefore justified, capisce? Thus I always shiver when I hear shit like "yes this is horrible..BUT". There's no fucking "but"! In cases like Terrorism, the cruelst of cruel things, one MUST treat the problem with a "black-n-white" right/wrong approach. There can't be a compromise when it comes to the systematic, deliberate killing of civilians.

this is the rhetoric of a fascist. i have nothing to say to such a single-minded person, apart from the fact that u consider the murder jewish civilians as a crime, but condone the murder of arabs. not the same eh? they not really ppl, r they? u make me sick.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant ALL(!) Israeli actions were therefore targeted at their heads, headquarters, infrastructure. No "war on the palestinian people" has been proclamied. Never.

then why do u keep killing innocents? does targeting 1 person justify killing thousands along the way?

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant As I said: As soon as this desease called Terror has been eliminated, diplomacy can come into play and give the poor Palestnian People everything they've been deprived of for decades (but not only by Israel, think of their Arab "brothers" too). End of fucking story.

if u seriously believe that is sharon and co.s intentions, u r just a gullible fool. the conflict started because u invaded their land, and u will keep on doing that war or no war. u conveniantely forget this point everytime, yet it is the very route of the problem.

i c i'm wasting my time with a single minded little fascist here, who's incapable of seeing the whole point.
got better things to do, such as scratching my arse, or staring into thin air. besides, shouldn't u b in bed? or doing your home-work?

___________________
NFA

quote:

DROP PILLS NOT BOMBS

**applause**

nice back and forth, NRA and TranceGiant; I'm really enjoying the view from the sidelines here.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeJulez **applause** nice back and forth, NRA and TranceGiant; I'm really enjoying the view from the sidelines here.

my bad for spelling your name wrong NFA

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeJulez **applause** nice back and forth, NRA and TranceGiant; I'm really enjoying the view from the sidelines here.

NFA, please! i'm in no way affiliated with the National Rifle Association!

___________________
NFA

quote:

DROP PILLS NOT BOMBS

quote:

Originally posted by NFA and how about the way u explain the cruelties of your beloved regime? not only do u explain it, u advocate more violence still. u r part of the problem, and u r no different than the terrorists and their political leaders u hate.

If you have a problem with the way Israel is dealing with the fact that it is under attack, then what do you suggest they do about it? Pack up and leave? Or perhaps sit idly by while they watch their friends and family blown to pieces in the street? You seem awfully quick to draw a line of equivalence between the violence of both sides, but it doesn't really follow from any rational deductive process since Israel's only motive for violence is self-defense. The Palestinians have the power to end the cycle of violence, but the Israeli's do not.

quote:

ok, i take your point. but has it never occured to u that i was being provocative? it may hurt a few feelings, but maybe it will make a few right-wing tits reflect a little, and anlyze their thoughts/actions. i try to make ppl like u bloody stop it with this victim culture whereby they seem to think that because they have been victims of one of the most atrocious crimes (!not the only one) in history, they are justified in doing as they like in the conviction that they are right. u can be a victim of abuse, but that does not justify u abusing others. and that is what too many jews r doing. and who dares point this out is immediately an anti-semite. i was going to attach an article by david aaronvitch (a jew), who explains this very well, but the website is donwn at the mo.

You're trying to be provocative? Well you're failing miserably. Ad hominem arguments aren't provocative, they're just stupid. Throwing around words like Nazi and Fascist in completely ridiculous contexts doesn't make anyone think about your arguments more seriously. If anything, it gives them the impression that you aren't actually interested in making a rational argument.

I also find it interesting that you're so quick to criticize the Jewish community for feeling victimized, and yet you seem to fail to realize that this is precisely the state of mind by which your beloved Palestinians justify their uncivilized behavior.

quote:

sharon's war crimes r well documented. if u choose to ignore them, then u will. and i HAVE mentioned arafat. i think he's a wanker, a fanatic, a despot and a terrorist, and i've said so many times. the sooner he goes the better. u smell bias? that's 'coz u want to smell bias.

I don't particularly think that Sharon and Arafat are likely to be able to achieve peace either. But to be honest, I've never seen a reliable account of Sharon's supposedly well-documented war crimes which actually tied him directly to the atrocities in Lebanon.

quote:

this is the rhetoric of a fascist. i have nothing to say to such a single-minded person, apart from the fact that u consider the murder jewish civilians as a crime, but condone the murder of arabs. not the same eh? they not really ppl, r they? u make me sick.

Your accusation of a double standard is completely and totally without foundation. Palestinian suicide bombers intentionally target innocent civilians, killing them for purely political purposes. Yes, innocent Palestinians are killed by the Israeli forces trying to suppress terrorist activity. But those deaths, while unfortunate, are not the objective of the Israeli's, while the deaths of innocents is indeed the objective of the Palestinians. And, to reiterate, the deaths of the Palestinians can ultimately be traced back to having been caused by their own actions.

quote:

then why do u keep killing innocents? does targeting 1 person justify killing thousands along the way?

Perhaps - it really depends on the circumstances. But it's certainly more justifiable than killing thousands for the sake of merely killing them, which is what the Palestinians are doing.

quote:

if u seriously believe that is sharon and co.s intentions, u r just a gullible fool. the conflict started because u invaded their land, and u will keep on doing that war or no war. u conveniantely forget this point everytime, yet it is the very route of the problem.

If you seriously believe that Sharon and Co. are fascists bent on the total destruction of the Palestinian people, then you're just a gullible fool. Their motives are the protection of their people and the preservation of their way of life.

quote:

i c i'm wasting my time with a single minded little fascist here, who's incapable of seeing the whole point. got better things to do, such as scratching my arse, or staring into thin air. besides, shouldn't u b in bed? or doing your home-work?

Given that your arguments consist almost entirely of charged language, personal attacks, unsupported generalizations, and contains enough fallacious forms of argument to write an introductory logic textbook based upon, I'd say you are wasting your time, because unless you actually start making rational arguments backed up with facts, of course you're not going to change anyone's mind. So next time you're sitting around, scratching your arse, or staring into thin air, maybe you should pick up a book or go online and do some research. Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter I also find it interesting that you're so quick to criticize the Jewish community for feeling victimized, and yet you seem to fail to realize that this is precisely the state of mind by which your beloved Palestinians justify their uncivilized behavior.

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGG!
my beloved palestinians? i'm just providing counter-arguments for f*** sake! how hard is that to understand????

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter if you seriously believe that Sharon and Co. are fascists bent on the total destruction of the Palestinian people, then you're just a gullible fool. Their motives are the protection of their people and the preservation of their way of life.

yes, actually i do. shall we agree to disagree on that one?

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Given that your arguments consist almost entirely of charged language, personal attacks, unsupported generalizations, and contains enough fallacious forms of argument to write an introductory logic textbook based upon, I'd say you are wasting your time, because unless you actually start making rational arguments backed up with facts, of course you're not going to change anyone's mind. So next time you're sitting around, scratching your arse, or staring into thin air, maybe you should pick up a book or go online and do some research. Just a thought.

well, i like a bit of childish pettiness, so here we go: he started it all by calling me a shit. so there

and yes, i agree. my logic has been flawed. but u know, it's kind of hard to keep completely consistent when u've been up for 4 days working 24/24, and some little fascist (i stick to that) comes along and calls u an ignorant shit.
i'm working on my phd, by the way.

___________________
NFA

quote:

DROP PILLS NOT BOMBS

quote:

Originally posted by rupert A large body of the Israeli population want to finish the job started in 1948 and 1967 and clear the occupied territories of the remaining arabs and make it safe for the settlers. However you cant just come out and do it because this might offend america so you come up with the scam of collective punishment. How does destroying palestinian farms, smashing up palestinian markets, depriving palestinians of basic water rights act as a deterent to terrorism.

I'm probably not as learned on this issue as some of you, but I did take a class on Middle Eastern affairs last year. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the "job" Israel wanted to finish in 1948 and 1967 initiated by the Arabs? With regards to 1967, yes Israel did pre-empt the attack but Egypt and Syria did begin mobilizing and massing troops on the Israeli border, Nasser asked the UNEF to leave the demilitarized borders, and a blockade Israeli shipping in the Gulf of Aqaba was initiated. World appeal to calm the situation failed and tensions escalated.

I think the sad part in all of this is that the Palestinians could have been so much better off and this whole mess could have been partyly avoided if diplomacy had been used from the outset. I saw some of the maps presented by the UN in the 40's and 50's thta divyed up Palestine between the Israelis and the Palestinians. If I recall, Ben-Gurion grudingly accepted the partition lines but the Palestinians refused. The land given to the Palestinians in the partition were far more generous then what they are currentely vying for now.

I would suggest reading Righteous Victims by Benny Morris, it comprehensively deals with the diplomatic and military actions of the Arab-Israeli war.

The author is Israeli and is not a palestinian apologist.

He tells it like it is, with footnotes and sourcing like any proper academic document.

I could imagine the right wingers dont like it because he provides countless quotes about what the 'heroes' of israeli history really thought.

quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the "job" Israel wanted to finish in 1948 and 1967 initiated by the Arabs?

The 'job' I am refering to is the zionist dream of a jewish homeland with the boundaries of the biblical israel. Again read Righteous Victims to understand the mindset of the IDF and the settlers.

quote:

Originally posted by NFA i'm working on my phd, by the way.

*applauds*
really, that's just great, thanks for sharing!

I wholeheartedly thank Arbiter fo saving me lots of time. I simply don't have the power to argue with self-proclaimed experts like NFA, who feel that by oversimplifying enough everything can be discussed without any background information.
It amuses me how the "shit" comment apparently hit you so hard that you're still trying to catch up by returning insults after insults. Hilarious
Oh and by the way: The only one who used the word anti-semite in this discussion was YOU. How can u complain about the the fact that criicizing Israel results in accusations of being antisemitic while the only on throwing around with NAZI etc. is you?

Although I feel it's needless to say I'll make it clear, just for you: I do not hate any single nation/peoples/whatever on this planet. I will , however, never stop to speak out against Terrorism. Terrorism is moder fascism. It destroys all achievments of our civilization. It hurts the Palestnians more than it hurts the Israelis. Think about it.

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

ive tried hard not to post here.. but shit its happeneing..

i think you guys need to calm down.

shlomo_hamalech: i agree with NFA in that the comments you make in your original post are very facist remarks. calling them 'pigs' and 'these dirtbags need to be stomped on' is not the right way of going about things. either calm down the way you speak (as there are many people on here who are taking offense to what you are saying) or carry on and be banned. also, as a footnote, i think both you and melech_mike need to look at what else the site has to offer. all i see is posts in here from you both.. nowhere else. there are plenty of political websites with forums if you only want to discuss politics.

regardless of the situation in your country, in our country, or in any country, you do not use language like that in these forums.

the idea in this forum is for friendly debate, and that isnt happening. if your all not careful, and shit continues like this, this forum may get closed. i am with wicked neo in that i feel that this forum does not belong on this site, as it goes against what trance stands for. trance stands for unitiy, and respect to others, and i cant see any of that in here.

___________________
MUGGETS

Last edited by tu_face on Feb-24-2003 at 13:01

quote:

Originally posted by shlomo_hamalech Give it up you anti-semite lowlives!!

READ the thread b4 u reply. u keep demonstrating that u havn't read half the things here (i've passed on previous similar events), thus disqualifying yourself from this debate. i have nothing else to add to you.

and frankly (this to everyone else), i may lash out at nazis and come over as aggressive, but i'm surprised at how many people tolerate the rethoric used in the original post of this thread.

thank u tu_face. my apologies towards the moderators and decent people reading this thread if i've been a bit... OTT.

___________________
NFA

quote:

DROP PILLS NOT BOMBS

I have no interest in further opening up more worms of kickass here, there are enough as it is.


firstly, and funniestly, I am so happy and laughing so hard you guys think melech_mike and me are the same!!!! It's very funny. But its DEFINETLY NOT TRUE. as you can msg each one of us seperately anytime and ask anything whatever and there is no connection.

but we have talked with each other before....

if anyone really cares cause you have nothing more important to do in your life, then feel free to pm me, and i'll give you an answer.


or if you intelligently want to talk, and here I knew from the beginning that it was a waste of time, this is tranceaddict.com board, not a board for current event analysts. Most people here are ignorant pretty much on the subject. Only someone like myself or one of the others from the jewish/israeli background, live this life, and learn it, and breath it. Sometimes a stat may be wrong, but when random countries citizens turn heads towards our little wartorn blood filled country due to unjust terrorism for the last 100 years, and scream bloody murderer nazi's, we say its hopeless with these obviously biast racist bastards that just want us dead as we have seen throughout history.

I dont care who loves trance, I have been breathing trance for years!!! I have been part of this board FOR YEARS. Various names, times, and I never posted much on the board, as I made excellent use of the fine design, and the search button usually brought me to my answer, but sometimes I had a post.

I was the guy that years ago, ripped the first version of tenshi, that flew around the net... I asked for an ID first on FIRE & ICE - souviner de chine, Also I one time tried to get an ID from a OAKENFOLD party north of toronto to this amazing vocal white label...

anyways... I am real, but also busy. My country is being butchered. It is not a subject for moral villification, nor for examples of modern day nazi's. As it's plainly known, if the arabs put down their weapons there will be peace, but if the jews put down their weapons there will be no more jews, but a lot of jewish blood!!

I am sick and tired of the last few years attacks on Israel Directly, and the Jewish people indirectly. We have jewish communities around the world, constantly being attacked, terrorist remarks and attacks all over the place. Everyday jews are being murdered because people have some magical lust for hating Israel at their 'attrocity'. What about Germany in the 30's-40's ?? when we were getting massacred? America said "1 jew is 1 too many" and they didn't even enter the war until 1942!!! Throughout the last decade there have been massive atrocities commited, but never has anyone doubted there were REAL massacres with pictures and footage and eye witness accounts.

But never were communities even loosely related attacked. If there is a problem in India (G-d forbid any problems on anyone!) would Hindu communities be at risk??? I doubt any of you would think of a connection!!! BUT OF COURSE... ISRAEL... the moral evil of the world! Are soooo evil, they slaughter arabs!!!.... yet whatever may be the discussion of the day on who's books and facts we look at, communities around the world getting attacked and put in fear shows this issue is much deeper.

as my current mind tells me, things for hte JEWS are not good for an interior reason. Whenever the jews at any point in History have been hit it was because not exterior things, but because we were not being true to ourselves. When Jews don't act like jews we lose.

1 and only example here, many people asked why did the holocaust happen??

The major idea for jews in regards to belief, is that we know our holy land is israel. The problem was, that 3 generations before the holocaust, the jews of germany declared, "berlin is our new jerusalem!" And they started the reform movement. In the eyes of the Blessed One, G-D! (am i a facist fanatic if I wish to praise The G-d that put me on this planet and gave me everything I have?) the idea of reform of the ways G-d asked for us (which are a pleasure to keep!) made him upset in a way, that we were falling off the way of being jewish.

It's well known that generally when jews leave the religon for 3 generations they grow so far apart from the religon that they basically lose it, well this was a huge loss for the jews, and by the third generation, the 1930's, it was time for the Jews to get punished for being totally against the religious ways, its very sad but look what G-d gave us, once our punishment was over. The chance to begin a new, he let us take up land in the 1 small slip of land never claimed for a capital, and only biblical homeland for the jews... and what happpened? The state was founded on a secular non-jewish philosophy. The year was 1948. Now we have made progress.

But many things remained... and 2 years ago crap hit the fan, and now as I just tested on this board, which is what I wanted to do originally! Everyone has a piece of misinformation of lack of information the subject and therefore i'm not even 100% sure of something, how much more so should some italian american who lives a fine life with his Honda Prelude, know about the subject to make statements and further support the economic disaster falling my countrymen.

Because of Sept, 11 a new catagory arrived in everyones mind. Catagorizing is something most people do naturally, and now we have the new catagory of religious observance. The muslim idea of religious generally is calm and fine, but shiite idea of muslim is extreme, and because of their actions, which are put in one catagory, anything related to the jews must be put in that same catagory that shows any form of pride or will to keep our land...

I hope this make sense.

Today is a day for as Wicked _Neo, unity. I am personally also opposed to this forum. While I think i'd get enjoyment out of arguing with the ignoramics on the board who talk from what their gossip peddling mouths and ear hear/say. I dont even bother to get deep into things because i have links on my signature that point to places with the truth.

I am not surprised at how the world unites against us. The only place I really never say any dis-unity because of worldly events was Trance, but here we have opened a portal to a part of trance I see many don't want to take.

The connection we share through Trance is significant to some. For me, First my dedication to learning about G-d, the way of the world, and how I can be a good addition and help the world, and finally my TRANCE!!!!!

I see how everyone argues, nazi comments... justifying terrorists... its sad what liberalism has led to... Years ago I voted that liberalism was the best way. But I see how it just led us download on the stairway to heaven on earth! There is no level of morality, people do whatever they want. I'm sure some of you must believe there is something in this world that needs to be here for something? The idea of murder is always accepted as wrong. In our society where do we draw the line on murder? at a certain point. And all other subjects of law, too have a place where the lines are drawn. Slowly, they fade, and go down and down.

until one day there is virtual anarchy. Anything is legal! come and enjoy anything u want!

There is always going to be a way to justify why we don't need certain laws, (drugs, prostitution, etc...) and without a solid line saying no matter what this stays, we will always recede in our ways and de-gress not progress as a civilization.

This is what I see today. Look at the differences around the world today. Israel has its problems, but never has one country been under so much scrutiny and world attention for an issue so small. There are many countries now where there are interior border wars etc, or natives wanting land or whatever. However, I don't see people trying to do something, i see everyone slandering our country where my brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers are being slaughtered evil PIGS, and they must be stopped!! You are ULTRA-LEFTWING, I am therefore ULTRA-RIGHTWING. Your views are based on liberal views, my views are based on conservative, based on morality, as taught by the oldest religion, the one praised by many as the founder of montheism!

Lastly on this loosely related thread.... In the original TORAH (5 books of moses) in the first book genesis, it says that Avraham had 8 sons. 6 of them, got their presents from him before he died and they moved EAST. They were living in Israel at the time. East of Israel is then Asia. It is taught that the 'gifts' were physical prowess and skills in the arts. Such as martial arts, 'so called' blak magic etc... IT is written in the book! If you look before that point, all the material wealth is given to Issac, so therefore the other 6 son's presents/gifts were knowledge in the arts, that they passed inthe EAST. Whcih we know now of the east. Such as zen buddhism etc... their philosophy is similar to jewish, in the idea of oneness of creation etc...

anyways I will depart from this post!

But notice how not even a single comment of scorn to the palestinian legislator threatening to make suicide attacks against america... NOT EVEN ONE!!! Only attacks that someone has the nerve to say something bad about them and try to make israel look good..

you must see it from my point of view, the world is virtually against us, and the ones who aren't must be able to see it as well. EVEN THE MODERATORS> dispite what me or smart people like arbiter, melech_mike, or a few others may say< the majority percent of views are generally ignorantly bias, attacks, racist, subject-re-routing attempts, or something to this degree.

The fact I don't like being so politically correct so many of the times is that it is a waste of time here this is a tranceboard!!! My points get across, and when they don't, honestly me proving something right here means how much in the scheme of things? my words will be argued against by some muslim cleric in morroco spouting out against everything anyone says positive about jews or israel!!!

its a waste of time...

i think this forum should be tossed out totally, or given the exclusive warning *NOT MODERATED* and let people use this to vent themselves...

i can see problems with the latter option though but its up to you guys..

as far as the battle of propaganda is, the arabs are winning. The jews have problem, we most of the time try to be like everyone else, so politically correct and not to anger anyone that we always lose. Our facts are pushed aside to the heartfilling words of sadiness (and lies) from the filthy mouths of terroists pretending they are in it for the sake of the people (The people they leave in refugee camps for over 50 years while they pocket the money and build weapon factorties to kill humans living east of the jordan river...). Because people in general have a problem I will reveal to some, but those with PHD's in psychology may know...

People think with 2 parts of themselves, their brain (logically, rationally, looking at facts and being objective) and then their emotional hearts (gut feelings, mercy, sorrow, anger, revenge) And the problem is that everyone thinks with their brains, but let their hearts take over, and they lose their logical ways of thinking, this is what happens in the arab world. Their ways are so corrupt, and its proven aroudn the world, look at the sept 11 and onward situations with muslims around the world! BTW I have good muslim friends. But I am referring to shiite muslims as i said before. They think with their emotions. They don't rationalize they don't say, "are what our leaders saying true? is it making sense? is this the best way to further our casE?" no they hear "KILL!!! MASSACRE!!! GUT THEIR CHILDREN!!!" and their emotions rage, and the objective thinking loses out.

this happens with the sypathsizers as well. they see that poor arabs so poor, (not trillionaires from oil but poor), and the big mighty israel and america want to hurt them! Shame on them!!!

journalists have stated they see it as david and goliath... it's so sad that in the truth of the story, David was a jew!!! so the situation is reversed in two cases!!! the jews being CALLED NAZI'S!!! and we being called Goliath and them Dave!!!!!!!!!! WOWOWOWOWO

anyways im done. I have said all I need to say. For fact discussions people, look to websites. They have the real facts out there. Israel wants peace, there are those in israel that are worried because if the arabs ever become smart and stop fighting, once there is true peace, most israeli's not strong in religon (as you see with the election voter strngth of anti-religious shinui party!!! ) would give away land and make whatever amount of consessions just to appease them!! a lot of israelis that in reality would prefer to be in new york, just crowd into the tel-aviv area. That is why for instance, iraq attacks tel-aviv mostly. because he knows that thats the largest cluster. It also by 'coincidence' happens to be where the most people who don't believe in G-d as a jewish way of life live. But in the gulf war, with 39 scuds falling, not even 1 person died directly of it. 1 man had a heart attack who was a lobbyist for bringing pork/pig into israel which according to our religon is not allowed.


well thats it ...


see you all in the tracklisting forums!! Also maybe the gaming forum

--- SHLOMO ELIYAHU BARON

my name in english is solomon elliot baron. so i cannot be melech_mike you see.


bye