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Thats horrible, I read the article and it just disgusts me. But what disgusts me more is this. "The raid in Jabaliya was carried out well after midnight when the only people roaming the streets are Palestinian killers" Mark Sofer, Israeli official To Mark I have one thing to say, What The Fuck are you talking about? Palastinian Killers? What a crock of shit. Two wrongs don't make a right, and what this guy said is pure bullshit

It is horrible that it was said like that... can you attach the source where you read that to your post please!

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Signature Suspended as it was deemed offensive.

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Originally posted by melech_mike It is horrible that it was said like that... can you attach the source where you read that to your post please!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2824363.stm

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Originally posted by melech_mike what are you motives for being in these discussions? do you have anything intellegent to contribute here?

if anyone has motives for being in these discussions its you and schlomo trying to convince everyone of your fanatical and racist point of view

as for how intelligent my contributions are, well, lets just say that my contributions are no less intelligent then your bias BS, your constant swearing to people who disagree with you and your repeated referalls to how Palestinians should be 'gutted'

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Melech Mike who the fuck are you... what are your fucking motives for being in these discussions? do you have anything intellegent to contribute here? are you just going to continue to pick at everyones comments responding with immature ignorant remarks? Please limit your posts with nothing racist in them. If you have something contructive to say, than say it... otherwise just shut the fuck up and go back to your hole. i have read every single one of your posts and none have anything half decent in them. your making yourself look like an jackass... its seems to me that your intentions here are simply to bash the rest of the world with nothing backing it. Use that small given brain of yours... Damn dude, you never learn. Heres a news flash Mike, you don't own these forums, and its because of people like you that the moderators are thinking of shutting this forum down.

Don’t know why I’m even responding to this...
My motives are to give my opinions on what’s happening in the Middle East. This includes bringing in reliable sources and sources that some of you might not otherwise get to see. Also, I’d like to help inform a lot of misinformed people on this board.
I think it’s fair to say that I have contributed a number of intelligent threads/posts to this here political forum.
When I pick on people comments it’s usually with an argument of my own rather than a useless remark that does absolutely nothing for the discussions at hand. Also, as of late, I haven’t really "insulted" anyone for having opposing views... I may have challenged them, but that’s a far cry from 'immature ignorant remarks'!
My posts have nothing racist in them... but thanks for coming out.
If you do feel that any of my recent posts have been racist, than I’d be more than happy to review with the rest of the board what you consider racist. Please don’t resort to posts before my suspension.
I have constructive things to say and this is why I continue to post. I haven’t posted anything comparable to that of Nalins posts.
The only hole I can actually crawl into is your mom’s ****... and I like to refer to it as a crater rather than a hole!
If you had actually read every single one of my posts and still feel none had anything half decent in them, than I suggest you go educate yourself on what the word decent even means. Those on this board who have opposing view from me even consider my posts to have "half decent" points in them.
I haven’t bashed the world... unless you consider Islamic extremism the "whole world". Also when I do bash whoever/whatever I bash, it’s always with backing of my own whether it be my opinions, sources I have to offer, or just facts I’d like to present.
I never did think that I owned this forum... if I did you wouldn't be here!
MOD's may have been considering closing this forum, but by no means was it because of me. I may have contributed to the many other reasons they might have had, but so have you, cyrus, nalin, az and many others on this board.

Now if you don’t mind... I’m going to get back to my cozy crater AKA your moms hole.



NALIN WROTE:

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your constant swearing to people who disagree with you and your repeated referalls to how Palestinians should be 'gutted'

never said that palestinians should be gutted.... i said terrorists... people who blow up buses, people who commit crimes against humanity such as those who carry out homicide attacks against innocent civilians!

NEXT.....

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Signature Suspended as it was deemed offensive.

Last edited by melech_mike on Mar-07-2003 at 03:44

"Israel accuses Palestinians of fabricating multiple civilian deaths in Gaza district of Jebalya. Wednesday night, Israel launched fresh counter-terror operation in Jebalya and Beit Lahya, killing three armed Palestinians who launched RPG rockets against retreating Israeli troops.

Two streets away, 8 Palestinians were killed, 100 injured, in explosion at burning shop. Israel denies Palestinian accusation of firing tank shell, declares explosive materials inside store blew up"

This is the israeli army report to what happened.

It is much more belivable then Israel randomly blowing up palestinians. You would say if this was not Israel, but America, and the same accusation was made that there was no way the palestinians were right, but Israel.. no problem believing they waste tank shells on random houses!

I have a good friend in the Tank division of the army. They don't get to just run around shooting arabs. This guy I know got demoted because he talked back to his commander about how his unit was constantly under fire and was NOT ALLOWED TO ATTACK BACK (because people like you screaming we murder them, we put our lives on the line so that none of them will be hurt) this is disgusting, that we can't defend ourselves in unban warfare, because these terrorists use human shields!

Lets define my agenda, and my opinions right here. you tell me if they are fanatic. And we will ofcourse, define fanatic, define extremist and any term u shoot as us.


- The PA is a murderous terrorist bandwagon, bent on the destruction of a jewish presence in the middle east. (proof: look at he PA charter:
"Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland. "
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00pv0
(if you dont like this source, cause you are stupid and think it is 'bias' go type 'palestinian charter' on any search engine)

The definition of 'homeland' is Israel, as it was partitioned by britian.

- Arafat was given everything he asked for, at CAMP DAVID, but he turned it down. Because it gave him no possibility to get all of Israel. He saw how weak Israel was in our pride and just wanted to take it in the ass to have some peace, but he rejected it, and started the current INTIFADA! (this is fact, not opinion so shut up with your 'fanatic' comments)

- There is not going to be peace with arabs in Israel. Once the world realizes this, and begins looking at other ways of solving it, (telling the arabs to swallow their pride and accept that Israel is our country and they are not going to get it, so get used to living in Israel and enjoy their stay.) then we can have peace.

- Israel is not an agressor, as it is known during the 'oslo' days, there was no 'israeli aggression' as long as their was no arab threat to our daily lives. Hence: If the arabs dropped their weapons tommorow, there would be peace... but if israel dropped it weapons....

- There is no chance that the world can have any say into the matter since everyone holds some form of bias because of current world problems. IE: arab terrorism world wide. Al-qaeda (arab terrorist organization world known), and the propaganda always spinning against jews for thousands of years.

- The Israeli's have no desire for war with arabs. They want peace, and want to live like America, or Norway, or Japan, in peace with its neighbours.

- Arab hatred taught from youth in arab areas in israel signal the future that the arab adults today want to take. www.opsick.com is a non-profit worldwide organization dedicated to showing the propaganda put into childrens minds in MANY Countries around the world. Surprise surprise, they see palestinian terrortories as a big problem.


finally, lets define fanatic --> I see fanatic as a belief that spins so far out into a direction, that it is no longer based on anything rational, but irrational ideas, that cross into the freedom of others, and the rights to choose. AKA: hamas for example. Blowing up yourself in a fruit market, does nothing objective, beneficial except cause pain to your enemy. It is a fanatical belief that is not based on logic.

Extremism --> an extreme is if u need 1 liter of water for something, but you bring 100gallons instead. Saying that Israel has a right to remain soverign and doesn't have to appease any arab or international demands no matter what is not extreme. It is a valid opinion based on facts, rights, and the will of a law-abiding, honourable society.

What about you?

You say we are fanatical and extremist, because we are pro-israel, and not pro-22nd dictator warmachine state.

Don't comment on arab countries if you have not been here, and/or have not learned what is going on today. Syria occupies lebanon, iran is a backbone of terrorism. The PA is the worst of all, doing all the above, while inciting children with propaganda, building bomb factories, and unjustly trying to destroy a nation!

Shlomo

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Originally posted by melech_mike Good, so we should both agree that Israel, America and anyone else who vows to eliminate these animals are the real heroes of our time. Anyone who protects them should be considered just as guilty! No, they do it because they are misinformed about who’s really causing this grief for them. It seems that you are too. These people are brainwashed by the government who doesn't allow any foreign media outlets to broadcast in PA controlled areas. Thus letting the PA to make up whatever bullshit they want to paint whatever picture they want portrayed... in this case it’s to make Israel look like the reason for all the Palestinian people’s problems. You think they know that Arafat and his henchmen pocket so much of the money issued to make conditions more bearable for them? Hell no, they hear that Israel froze all they're assets and Israel wants them all dead. This gets them furious (as it would anyone) and makes it easier for radical Islamic groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbullah and others to recruit them. They hear lies and propaganda from their own governments, how do you expect them not to hate Israel? They learn in school that 1 Israeli + 1 gun = genocide of all Palestinians. We all know that this is not the case! Israel is not the evil aggressor here... in all of Israel’s existence it wasn't never the aggressor (check history for yourself). Anything this state ever did was for defensive purposes only. As soon as it has no reason to be on the defensive... there will be no more operations rooting out terrorists anymore! Get that through your head!

Though I agree that those who seek to end hatred and terrorism deserve to be commended, I personally wouldn't go so far as to say they are the "true heroes of our time", because, though their actions may claim to have the "best" intentions, they definately do not always yield the best results.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I see, from the media and the slanted views it presents as well as from some on this board, is that Isreal is doing ALL it can in trying to eliminate the terrorist threat, and that it is doing it the best way possible, while on the other hand it is the PA's onus to reform itself and its views before any real progress toward peace can begin. It is argued as well that the people of Palestine have been brainwashed into hating Isreal and seeing them as the problem, by the PA, Hamas, Hezbollah, et al, that this is the reason that these attacks continue and seem to have a lot of support.

The way I see it, the foundation for the PA and all these terrorist groups is the Palestinian people. Without the support of the people, these groups would eventually crumble and break apart, because though they may be funded by Arab interests and such from abroad, it is from their own people where they ultimately draw their strength. Palestinians in the refugee camps probably don't see them as Muslim extremist terrorists whose every action hurts the greater cause that they are purportedly championing; they see them as liberators, their own "true" heroes, fighting to rid themselves of the "terrorist" threat that is in the form of Israeli tanks and soldiers. Hamas et al want to keep this grotesque delusion alive, for many reasons: first off, they too have bought into it; it gives them a steady and available source of new recruits; and as Melech-Mike has pointed out, it probably gives them a nice financial cushion with which to continue propagating their misguided and hateful doctrines. It is sad that all the Palestinian public has to turn to for its 'leaders' are men and groups who don't display the qualities requisite to lead their people, as these leaders seem to be misguided and deluded in their actions in their crusade for a Palestinian state.

Now it has also been said that Israel has taken a more active role in attempting to quell the threat posed by the terrorist organizations. I would argue (from the information I have seen) that she is instead taking an even more reactive response to these threats, by attempting to counter violence only with violent attacks of its own. I also see an attitude (prevalent especially on this board) of feeling the need to wait for the PA and such to get its act together, before further progress can be made for both sides to reach an agreement. I think that Israel should be taking a more pro-active role in this arena if they really want to initiate any sort of change and "break the circle." Figuratively speaking, I would say the ball is not squarely in the Palestinian court, but rather Israel still should be doing more (as much as it is already); in this case, trying all that it can to win the trust and confidence of the Palestinian public. Since the PA seems to be content not to educate its people about the situation, then Isreal should do whatever possible to step up in this direction. If the public can trust PM Sharon and his administration, then Hamas and Hezbollah will have no basis, and no further support, for carrying out their suicide bombings and other forms of terrorist actions.

I admit that all this would inevitably be a long and hard road, but I think that such a step is right now necessary in ultimately helping to resolve the conflict. If things continue on their current course, it is hard for me to fathom an end that would benefit both sides. We can't just wait for the PA to reform itself; Israel must do more and work in other ways than it already is. If this isn't possible, then a neutral third party, that both sides can trust and accept (probably not the US ), must act as a mediator.

I do commend those countries, such as the US and Israel, who take steps to try to make this world a better place to live in; I just don't agree with all their methods (there's a lot else I don't agree with as well, but that's another argument for another time).

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This is the patent age of new inventions For killing bodies and for saving souls, All propagated with the best intentions. -Lord Byron