Originally posted by nefardec
What turned me off more than the actual music itself was the culture surrounding it, namely the huge lines, guido-infested clubs, exorbitant prices, autograph signing, etc. i hated that no one danced at these parties, just pumped their fists. i got sick and tired of waiting for the breakdowns to end so i could start dancing again. i hated that i could predict every chord change and transition. i would be in the center of a party and look around at all the kids and be reminded of growing up in a catholic family at church. the more i learned about the history of the music, the more i realized how much more exciting and fresh it must have been. i became more interested in the mystery of something new and unknown, rather than knowing all the tracks armin van buuren or paul van dyk would play during their set and then reading a complete ID list on a review when I returned.
+2 on this!
I follow(ed) Tiesto religiously, but it got to a point where I just can't be arsed anymore - too many worshippers and blind followers who have no idea of what it was like 10 years ago, when there really was not-ordinary something to what he was playing.
Its far more interesting if a DJ is playing tracks unknown or obscure new bombs that won't be just a few internet clicks away once home from the party. The allure has certainly been removed thanks to the exposure and success of some of the big name DJs. It's very easy to lose the real reason for the party in this environment, and i truly learned to appreciate the smaller underground parties of other DJs because of this experience.
Originally posted by Clovis
Yeah you're right, that must be Long Island, nobody like that lives in New Jersey.
Heh, not all of us LIers are like that... thankfully.
Jan-12-2009 18:18
Noisician
Harsh electronic purity
Registered: Aug 2001
Location:
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
Thats probably why "classical" and "jazz" are listened by the minority, because they require more effort than pop. ofourse, it could also mean that whoever pays more "attention/effort" could possibly get awarded with more varied and rich emotions. It could also go the other way around, with less musical complexity-less emotional complexity.
i don't think enjoyment as such is necessarily conditioned by emotions or the complexity thereof. people could be keen on jazz or classical for some other reasons. i listen to harsh noise because it gives me the thrills... an incredible rush of adrenaline. to me personally it's a unique experience evoking an intense feeling of pleasure that would be very difficult to achieve elseways. it's like a mental equivalent of getting off. and a powerful mental stimulant.
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
The euphoric stuff just became silly and noisy to me
Originally posted by Trance-MB
I love Belgium for how people danced at old techno and trance. Always went to Belgium clubs. Much more underground back then compared to Dutch clubs. They already jumped like 15 years ago and it was really cool to watch. Two words which you might remember: BONZAI JUMPS
If you see how much fun now even just 2 year old childeren have jumping to this music, I can't be negative about it.
Also better than sitting in front of tv or the playstation all day. Jumpstyle mainly is popular beneath 18 years I think, which if fine to me.
We all know little childrens reactions are very pure, so they really are enjoying it.
laugh away guys
Taste Of Summer ... jump remix
Universal Nation ... jump remix
Jan-12-2009 19:38
Trance-M
Since 1994 tranceaddict
Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Limburg, Netherlands
quote:
Originally posted by Barachem
I just danced my butt off when the tracks allowed it and got much more than my fair share of ridicule for it from guys and girls.
That sound of 'Rubb It In' and the stuff at 75% of the video still is amazing IMO. Didn't hear it for a long time.
___________________
Longest (classic) Trance playlist on YouTube (5000 tracks released up to and including 1997), click here
Jan-12-2009 20:03
sljiva
experimental
Registered: Aug 2005
Location: Zagreb
quote:
Originally posted by Noisician
[color=white]i don't think enjoyment as such is necessarily conditioned by emotions or the complexity thereof. people could be keen on jazz or classical for some other reasons. i listen to harsh noise because it gives me the thrills... an incredible rush of adrenaline. to me personally it's a unique experience evoking an intense feeling of pleasure that would be very difficult to achieve elseways. it's like a mental equivalent of getting off. and a powerful mental stimulant.
Yeah, I could agree with that. There are lot of reasons why one listens to music he does, and we shouldn't really generalize about that. These days I mostly listen to Hecq, Chris Clark or Autechre simply because they structure their music in a unique way, they way few producers out there do. I've listened to so much music of pretty much every genre in the past, and right when I start to think how most of it is quite unimaginative and generic and that I heard it all, I hear something from these three that makes me: "WTF was that?! That was awesomely executed!". And these moments are exactly what I search in music and what makes me feel good about it these days. It's not even about complexity (which is ultra high btw) so much, as it's about those "WTF was that" moments.
Jan-12-2009 20:05
Trance-M
Since 1994 tranceaddict
Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Limburg, Netherlands
quote:
Originally posted by FCB_Fanatic
laugh away guys
How old are you? Think I need to add something before people get the wrong idea about Belgium...
Only the way they Jump was about the same, but compared to your first vid, the Jumping now has much more variation and needs more space.... also the feet are much higher from the floor, no kicking back then...., the Belgium music was very different and much better...., okay, I think it was better:
Originally posted by Noisician
i don't think enjoyment as such is necessarily conditioned by emotions or the complexity thereof. people could be keen on jazz or classical for some other reasons. i listen to harsh noise because it gives me the thrills... an incredible rush of adrenaline. to me personally it's a unique experience evoking an intense feeling of pleasure that would be very difficult to achieve elseways. it's like a mental equivalent of getting off. and a powerful mental stimulant.
i find that offensive
No i didn't say that. I said that high musical complexity and arrangements (complexity up to a certain relative point) would tend to correlate with a richer emotional palette than simpler music. For example classical musicians of the romantic period used to compose those long symphonies and "tone poems" in order to convey all these different emotional conditions of a story's "hero". Later mucisians e.g. of the impressionist period used to make less complicated musical pieces (but more innovative i would say in terms of breaking the harmonic rules etc.) and hence used to create a more "abstract" musical experience. E.g. Debussy just wanted to create a "feeling", not to tell a whole story with highs and lows etc.
But as i said before, the felt emotional complexity should not be confused with enjoyment or emotional intensity. As ar result, one could experiece a simple basic feeling, but this simple feeling could be very intense. As you said, you listen to noise for whatever reason (e.g. anger) and this is enough for you to get your "musical high".
I listen to a bit of everything (lol) but i like the more melodic complexity of one of my favorite genres-post-rock with the slow passages and the climaxes and the crescendos because it drives me through many different emotional states. It is somehow structured like a romantic piece thats why i like it (also like a lot of 70s prog-rock as well)
Explosions in The Sky- The Only Moment We Were Alone
When i want a "faster" fix, i'll go with something simple melodically but with the soundscapes that i like. Medium-small melodic complexity, medium-small emotional palette, but my enjoyment is enormous!
Airiel- Sugar Crystals (i think that ulrich schnauss in involved in this or something by the way)
I can get enjoyment from any of these tracks. But with the first one i would feel a lot more things in comparison to the second and then in comparison to the third (if ofcourse i'm willing to pay the amount of effort/atention that any of these tracks demand. The first one would demand more in comparison to the second and then to the third, although some more pure minimal tunes would require more due to their repeatetive nature (since the brain would need extra effort to overcome the habituation of repetition!) In addition, one can't deny the fact that the first one is the most complex of these tracks, followed by the second and then the third one.(musical complexity should also not be perceived as equal to quality, although there would be some correlations here as well) Thats what i'm saying that the musical complexity would tend to correlate with the complexity of emotions. But, depending on the time of day, my mood, my mental state, i could get an equal enjoyment from all three tracks. An enjoyment of different nature (since there are different emotions involved) but equal final result.
Originally posted by Trance-MB
How old are you? Think I need to add something before people get the wrong idea about Belgium...
Only the way they Jump was about the same, but compared to your first vid, the Jumping now has much more variation and needs more space.... also the feet are much higher from the floor, no kicking back then...., the Belgium music was very different and much better...., okay, I think it was better:
eeeuhm ... you're talking about music from more than a decade ago !!! Well that's absolutely not what I'm talking about (you'd better read my first post!). I think you're not really up-to-date about the current state of music in Belgium. I am really talking about how the situation is in Belgium at the moment ... more specificaly about jumpstyle in this case !!!
for starters, I'm 27 years old and well aware of those two tracks you posted up there! I don't think anyone in Belgium would call them Jump. These two tracks are from half way the '90 ... jumpstyle only started in Belgium at the end of the '90 (with Da Boy Tommy and Da Rick). It evolved, got more popular and reached its peak in +/- 2005-2006 (just an estimation from my part). It became really popular after that, 10 year old kids started to jump at school, playgrounds ... (as I explained earlier) and music was released specifically targeted at these kids (kidies' songs updated with a jump beat / clap). It became a commercial hype!
Off course the die-hard fans didn't like this at all ... their once so cool style was turned into a Laughing-stock. At the moment jumpstyle isn't as large as it was a couple of years ago, but you can still go to certain clubs where they play it (e.g Complex). Here you have a vid:
Jan-12-2009 21:40
Noisician
Harsh electronic purity
Registered: Aug 2001
Location:
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
No i didn't say that. I said that high musical complexity and arrangements (complexity up to a certain relative point) would tend to correlate with a richer emotional palette than simpler music.
that sounds like a matter of personal experience, to be honest. do you know of any scientific studies that could corroborate that claim on a larger scale?
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
For example classical musicians of the romantic period used to compose those long symphonies and "tone poems" in order to convey all these different emotional conditions of a story's "hero".
but is the word "complexity" really felicitous here? you seem to be talking about a concoction of different musical moods, which doesn't necessarily entail structural complexity.
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
As you said, you listen to noise for whatever reason (e.g. anger) and this is enough for you to get your "musical high".
i don't listen to noise out of an emotional need. i listen to it for the same reason i drink coffee. as a means of invigoration.
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
I can get enjoyment from any of these tracks. But with the first one i would feel a lot more things in comparison to the second and then in comparison to the third (if ofcourse i'm willing to pay the amount of effort/atention that any of these tracks demand. The first one would demand more in comparison to the second and then to the third, although some more pure minimal tunes would require more due to their repeatetive nature (since the brain would need extra effort to overcome the habituation of repetition!)
but does your situation typify the state of affairs in question?
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
In addition, one can't deny the fact that the first one is the most complex of these tracks, followed by the second and then the third one.(musical complexity should also not be perceived as equal to quality, although there would be some correlations here as well)
what is complexity and how do you define it as to be germane to the discussion? i personally didn't think the first one was more "complex".
___________________
Jan-12-2009 22:13
PETRAN
Like Antennas To Heaven
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Volos, Greece
quote:
Originally posted by Noisician
that sounds like a matter of personal experience, to be honest. do you know of any scientific studies that could corroborate that claim on a larger scale?
I don't have a number of studies, this is just my hypothesis lol. Although i'm inspired by some other studies out of the context of music, such as general perceptual psychology (in have worked mostly in vision and i have encountered some similar stuff in perception of complex versus simple scenes ). But these are just my thoughts in the end, nothing more, nothing else. Hey i can do some experiments and you can come as a subject (although i wouldn't call you now because you know the nature of the study lol). We are talking about aesthetics here, a domain which is not extensively investigated in scientific ways (but more in philosophical ones)
quote:
but is the word "complexity" really felicitous here? you seem to be talking about a concoction of different musical moods, which doesn't necessarily entail structural complexity.
No, not moods, emotions (they are different). This is exactly what my hypothesis says that a higher musical complexity would tend to correlate with higher emotional complexity up to a certain point. But i emphasize. Emotion and Enjoyment are not identical. More emotions don't imply a higher enjoyment (call it invigoration or whatevr you want). Its like when you get pleasure by eating different foods (or having sex with different types of women lol). You can get an equal pleasure (depending on your appetite) by eating a big Mac and some nice and complex delicatessen dish, despite the fact that you probably gonna experience a "poor" mixture of flavour with the big mac compared to the delicatessen dish . The final enjoyment could be the same though despite the variety of the experience in eating those two dishes. Why? Because your brain at that particular time (for whatever reason) gave a big "weight" to the mixture of elements that comprise the big mac. Whilst the key is in the mixture of elements (in music is the same) you will expience more rich flavours with a more rich dish (but not necessarily a higher enjoyment)
quote:
i don't listen to noise out of an emotional need. i listen to it for the same reason i drink coffee. as a means of invigoration.
Exactly. Pleasure. Enjoyment. This is why you do everyhing you do in the end! Its just that some people would tend to get more pleasure with a simple musical (structurally) piece and less emotional complexity whereas others would go for the opposite, or the same individual would go for both and everything in between depending on his/her mood, thoughts, energy, personality, time of day etc.
quote:
but does your situation typify the state of affairs in question?
what is complexity and how do you define it as to be germane to the discussion? i personally didn't think the first one was more "complex".
My situation? I try not to base my opinion in just my situation but in various observations. Musical complexity as in number of organs used, chord-changes, melodic complexity those stuff. The first one was structurally more complex than the second one which was in turn was more structurally complex to the third one.
