quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I'm all for peace, I really am, but this is fucking ridiculous. You peacemakers need to actually start showing some facts to support your argument instead of just telling us to "look at the facts." Yes I realize that some of the pro-war campaigners are also being assholes, but the anti-war nugacity is the worst. Stop trolling and grow up. If you don't have evidence to support your arguments then please, don't bother presenting them.

the single most important fact:
























drum roll please































NO WEAPONS HAVE BEEN FOUND!!

quote:

Originally posted by oceanlab polls are the ONLY indicator of public opinion...no matter how the stupid questions are phrased...people against war would say so in a Gallup poll...so polls mean a lot more than you could probably imagine.. as my credibility goes...I DONT GIVE A FUCK...these are my opinions...and unfortunately for your side, they are true. I can back my shit up with knoweldge of the world taken from a poly si degree from one of the best universities in the world...what can you back it up with? cbc news?

Yes polls and statistics are what we use to gauge public opinion. The thing about them though is that they can be manipulated to prove alomost anything. Not to refute the stat that the majority of people in North Amerca support what in MY opinion is a unjust war.

As far as opinion goes everyone is entitled to it. However when someone states that THEIR opinion is right and everyone elses is wrong is a rather self centred "I'm smarter than you" idea. From your last staement it seems that you also have lots of anger towards the arab world which can cloud opinion. We must undertsand that everyone has an opinion based on their personal beliefs. To close yourself to opposing ideas is closing yourself out to knowledge.

Heres to education! Its gives people the confidence to say that they are more well informed than others. Good for you! You have a Poli Sci degree. I got one too (mass communications to be exact)! But a degree doesn't teach you how the real world works. Being impartial and allowing yourself to consume facts from ALL sides is what life is really about and what university really teaches you.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGeek NO WEAPONS HAVE BEEN FOUND!!

What makes you say that, exactly?

Do you assume that no weapons have been found because they haven't reported any findings on Canadian TV?

Don't believe everything you see/hear/read. I'm NOT saying that there definitely ARE weapons, I'm just saying you need to stop citing this "fact" as a basis for your argument. It's absolutely ridiculous. We heard you say it the first time, so shut up about it already. You don't know for a fact that they haven't found any weapons just because they haven't shown them to you.

Personally, if I were in any sort of military intelligence position, I could think of very good reasons not to blab to all the cameras about what weapons we found. Do we really want to cause widespread panic throughout the USA? Wouldn't it, for example, be better to show the American public pictures of the weapons after they've been destroyed so they won't have to freak out?

I know this is just speculation, and I'm not for a minute trying to pass it off as fact. But what you keep saying is also speculation. You don't know this for a fact. This is why I hate the media culture (and the media coverage of the war in general). People accept everything they say at face value, and assume that if they haven't seen it on TV, it doesn't exist.

Edit: I want to add one thing - props to Time2Burn and greg, who actually seem to be making some coherent points here. Although it WOULD be nice to see other people doing the same.

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here is a list of a few schools with higher acceptance rates than Georgetown (easier to get into)

U of Pennsylvania (ivy)
Dartmouth (ivy)
Tufts
Rice
Wesleyan
Cornell (ivy)
UC-berkely
UCLA

have you heard of any of those schools? they are all, by far, better than ANY Canadian institution.

Georgetown accepts 21 percent of applicants, the two schools directly above it, are Amherst with 19, and MIT with 17. Have you heard of them???

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut What makes you say that, exactly? Do you assume that no weapons have been found because they haven't reported any findings on Canadian TV? Don't believe everything you see/hear/read. I'm NOT saying that there definitely ARE weapons, I'm just saying you need to stop citing this "fact" as a basis for your argument. It's absolutely ridiculous. We heard you say it the first time, so shut up about it already. You don't know for a fact that they haven't found any weapons just because they haven't shown them to you. Personally, if I were in any sort of military intelligence position, I could think of very good reasons not to blab to all the cameras about what weapons we found. Do we really want to cause widespread panic throughout the USA? Wouldn't it, for example, be better to show the American public pictures of the weapons after they've been destroyed so they won't have to freak out? I know this is just speculation, and I'm not for a minute trying to pass it off as fact. But what you keep saying is also speculation. You don't know this for a fact. This is why I hate the media culture (and the media coverage of the war in general). People accept everything they say at face value, and assume that if they haven't seen it on TV, it doesn't exist. Edit: I want to add one thing - props to Time2Burn, who actually seems to be making some coherent points here. Although it WOULD be nice to see other people doing the same.

so ur trying to say that canadian news AND american news "wouldnt" say that they HAVE found weapons of mass destruction??? why not??if it is a justification, why wouldnt they?? to preventpanic???? that really is NO justification.

would they rather prevent panic than prevent oppression of the other governments in the world so taht they can get support from the rest of the world??


it geos to prove that there ARE no weapons of mass destruction

under a budget of 1.2 billion only for an army, its hard to spare some change for development of weapons of mass destructoin

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quote:

Originally posted by DJ El Kay Dee so ur trying to say that canadian news AND american news "wouldnt" say that they HAVE found weapons of mass destruction??? why not??if it is a justification, why wouldnt they?? to preventpanic???? that really is NO justification. would they rather prevent panic than prevent oppression of the other governments in the world so taht they can get support from the rest of the world?? it geos to prove that there ARE no weapons of mass destruction under a budget of 1.2 billion only for an army, its hard to spare some change for development of weapons of mass destructoin

Oh my god, why don't you actually READ the post before replying.

I'm saying the media does not necessarily have any fucking clue what's really going on. They can't report on things they don't know. They take what they have and blow it out of proportion to make "news." We ALL know this, there's no sense in denying it.

I'm not letting you involve me in this kind of petty dispute, Liam. I made a point and admitted it was speculation along with everything else in this thread. Now please be polite and make the same admission, because you don't know the facts any better than the rest of us.

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut you don't know the facts any better than the rest of us.

true dat, there could be so much confidential info hidden...

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Ok lets stop this pointless bickering and change the subject a little bit.

It seems to me that no one can really get straight what this war is really about. Thus all this bickering over various issues. Its one of the main differences between this war and the first gulf war which had a very clear reason: Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Even the US can't get why they are at War staright. First it was to end the threat of terrorism. But when the couldn't prove any ties they had to move to the fact that they have weopons of mass distruction. But when those weren't found they have decided to concentrate on making the war about ousting Saddam. But if this is the case why hasn't the US invaded and taking over ALL the "evil" dictatorships in the world?

The antiwar people keep on going on about oil this and oil that. Which also can be easliy refuted.

So what in your opinion are the real reasons for the war?

Here is my opinion.

After 9-11 the US decided that to end all threats against them in the world they must actively go out and change regiems that do not comply to how they think the world should be run. The middle east has always been a threat to the american way of life. They resist american influence and are willing to fight for their beliefs.

To end this threat the US has decided to Democratize the region which basically means to gain governemntal power in order to open up the free market in the middle east. Iraq is an easy target because of their history and the fact that 10 years of sanctions they are weak.

To quote George Bush "this war is about the interests of our nation". These intrests are economic, to gain control of a very rich region that poses a threat to the "American way" of life. They don't care about freedom for Iraqi people if they did they wouldn't be dropping bombs on a city with a population of 500 000 innocent civilians.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut You peacemakers need to actually start showing some facts to support your argument instead of just telling us to "look at the facts."

vs.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Don't believe everything you see/hear/read. I'm NOT saying that there definitely ARE weapons, I'm just saying you need to stop citing this "fact" as a basis for your argument. It's absolutely ridiculous. We heard you say it the first time, so shut up about it already. You don't know for a fact that they haven't found any weapons just because they haven't shown them to you.

ok now honestly, are you really STUPID, or are you just playing? i hope you're playing, but it looks like you're really serious

first you want facts, then you don't... actually you do, but you want certain facts that only go in favour of YOUR argument... well make up your mind bud, do you want the truth, or is it that you can't handle the truth (always wanted to say that )??

the reason why US is going to war is because of weapons of mass destruction, do you really think that if they did find these weapons they would keep it to themselves? they would automatically show it on CNN to justify the war...

you want to argue here, yet you have absolutely NO CLUE what you're talking about...

TranceGeek: I am serious, and I can assure you I'm anything but stupid. If you'd bother to use your head here, you'd realize that these two statements make perfect sense together.

I ask people to state facts. Stating that "no weapons were found" is NOT a fact, because nobody here has any particular knowledge of U.S. military intelligence. I'm not asking for "facts that support my argument" because I have no argument to state (speaking of which, why do you automatically assume I'm pro-war? I never said any such thing). I'm asking for facts that are actually facts and not assumptions or idle speculation.

Your comment about automatically showing it on CNN to justify the war is simply not valid. The U.S. government does not need to justify anything, since they already have the full support of the American people. It really does not matter to Bush if other countries don't support them in the war - it only matters if they actually take a stance in defending Iraq, which they have not chosen to do.

Time2Burn: Again, good point, it does seem like the government is scrounging for good excuses on why they're fighting. That's something for the pro-wars to think about.

I won't bother anyone by posting further in this thread. If you need to continue this argument further with me, do it on PM (although, I don't tend to respond positively to flames on PM either, as some of you may know).

In conclusion I'd like to say: The war on Iraq has caused one of the worst "wars" I've ever seen on this forum. If you people truly believe in the ideals of peace, then try making peace with each other before telling the U.S. to make peace with Iraq.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut In conclusion I'd like to say: The war on Iraq has caused one of the worst "wars" I've ever seen on this forum.

ahahahahahahahha...funny u should say that cos this is jsut a 2nd grade fight as compared to the really heated wars that this board experienced in between september2002 and november 2002

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quote:

[i][b] In conclusion I'd like to say: The war on Iraq has caused one of the worst "wars" I've ever seen on this forum. If you people truly believe in the ideals of peace, then try making peace with each other before telling the U.S. to make peace with Iraq.

best point made so far

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