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| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
We aren't trying to scare you into anything,we're just telling you what's going on,and how it is. Big difference. |
That was an attempt to answer the first sentence, but it was incorrect. You said:
| quote: | | You think really differently when you're staring death in the face. |
Which is nothing shy of a veiled threat – do this or else. No one could read this in any other manner, unless you decide to become ignorant and/or naïve. Let me give you a similar scenario:
“Nessa, you give me a million dollars, or I’ll torch your house and everyone in it.”
Now, I’m not trying to scare you, I’m just telling you what’s going on, and how it is. Big difference isn’t it?
Now I responded with the following website, which outlined this threat Christians give, often known as Pascal’s Wager, and in it were details of the fallacies of this Wager/threat. For the sake of courtesy, I’ll oblige you and post the Wager and fallacies here:
| quote: | The Wager
Pascal's Wager can be presented in many different forms, usually something like this:
"If you believe, and God exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and God exists, you lose everything."
Alternatively :
"It makes more sense to believe in God than to not believe. If you believe, and God exists, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. If you do not believe, and He exists, you will be punished for your disbelief. If He does not exist, you have lost nothing either way. "
The worst case for the theist is no afterlife, the worst case for the atheist is an eternity in Hell. You can see why this appears to be a potentially convincing argument - it is sensible to choose the least-worst case.
The flaws
The most obvious problems with Pascal's Wager are:
• How do you know which God to believe in? There are plenty to choose from, and if you pick the wrong one, you could be in big trouble (e.g. what if you choose Jesus, but get to heaven only to come face-to-trunk with Ganesh?). This is known as the "Avoiding the wrong Hell problem". If a dozen people of different religions came to you with Pascal's Wager, how could you possibly choose between them? After all, many religions are quite specific that they are the One True Religion, and not any others. Jesus Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the light. None shall come to the Father except through me." [emphasis added] and no doubt most other religions make similar claims. If a Christian considers the Wager as strong support for his faith, surely he must accept that it is equally valid for all other religions when presented to himself?
• God is not stupid. Won't He know that you're just trying to get a free ride into Heaven? How can you sincerely believe in a God simply out of convenience?
• If there is no God, you have still lost something. You have wasted a good portion of your life performing the various devotional rituals, attending Churches, praying, reading scripture and discussing your deity with His other followers. Not to mention giving your hard-earned money to the church, wasting your intelligence on theological endeavours and boring the hell out of people who really don't want to hear your Good News.
• Can you get away with just sort of generally believing in a Supreme Being, without specifically believing in one particular Deity? Probably not - God will still know what you're up to. Also, many Gods are quite particular about how they should be worshipped. Many born-again Christians will tell you that the only way to Heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour - nothing more and nothing less. General-Deity-Belief and being nice simply won't do. Many people believe that all the different religions are merely alternative routes to the same destination. Nice and tolerant (if a little warm'n'fuzzy) though this may be, there is no valid reason to accept this stance over the fire-and-brimstone fundamentalist position : if the fundies are right, then the un-Saved liberal theists are in just as much trouble as the nonbelievers.
• Few, if any, atheists disbelieve in deities out of choice. It's not as if we know the god is really there, but somehow refuse to believe in it (for example, see if you can choose to truly believe that Australia does not exist). Most atheists disbelieve simply because they know of no compelling evidence to suggest that any sort of god exists. If you want an atheist to believe, show her some good evidence, don't just say it's in her best interests to believe even if there is no god. A person cannot choose to sincerely believe in something, just because it is pragmatic to do so. Sure, you could say all the right prayers and attend church regularly, but that is not the same thing as actually believing, and any God worth his salt would obviously see straight through that.
• It is quite insulting. It amounts to a thinly veiled threat, little better than saying "Believe in my God or He'll send you to Hell" (in fact, this is often the form it is presented in). Also, the theist making this threat assumes that the atheist believes there is a Hell or a God to send her there in the first place. If you don't believe in Hell anyway, it's not a scary thing to be threatened with - a bit like saying "If you don't start believing in unicorns, one will trample you to death while you're sleeping." Who would be worried by that?
• It is often self-refuting, depending on the person's description of God. If you believe that God will forgive anyone for anything, or judge people purely on how they lived their life and not what they believed, or that everyone gets to Heaven regardless (unless maybe they were genocidal cannibal serial killers), then the Wager is meaningless. You might as well say "Believe in God, or you'll... erm... go to Heaven anyway." In such a case, it doesn't make a scrap of difference whether the person believes or not.
Pascal's Wager is hopelessly flawed. It sounds good at first, but poke it with the spike of reason and it quickly deflates, letting out all the hot air. |
And your sentence reply also ignored the rest of my response. Please respond to the rest of it as shown:
| quote: | | Truly, this is in direct contradiction to the "peaceful, loving" God they continually profess. If God does, indeed, know my heart, as you point out below, He will most certainly know my intentions for trying to be as logical and as helpful on this planet as I can be. If that is not good enough for Him, then I would proclaim this God to be illogical and irrational (as it is clearly seen by his allowances and actions in a number of OT stories), and I want no part of Him. Period. |
IOW, why would God want me to believe in the illogical?
Why do you not read what I wrote, and wish for me to repeat? Please do not ask that which you immediately answer below:
| quote: | Again, we choose to sin or not to sin.
Of course there is a difference between ignorance,and stupidity. |
Which has nothing to do with my response. I am referring to addiction, one that cannot be stopped, even though the rapist/child murderer/drug addict wants so badly to do so, their will is just not strong enough for whatever reason. Yet they are Christian enough to accept Jesus. They are neither being ignorant nor stupid – it is an addiction.
| quote: | | But, the fact of the matter is for those who know they are sinning,they know not to do it, and they can control it. It might be hard,but they can. |
How many addicts have you known? You ever talked to a heroin addict? A true meth addict? How about a rapist? Unfortunately, I have had the displeasure to speak with these type of individuals in my past. They very much would like to cease their addictions, but the pressure is simply too great for many of these addicts to overcome. Of course they know they shouldn’t do it, and of course they ask for repentance of their sins each and every time with all their hearts to Jesus – but they do it regardless.
So as I continue stating, despite their sins, they will be allowed into heaven because of their repentance and acceptance of Jesus as their Savior, versus a Buddhist monk whose sole life is to help others and who knows nothing of Jesus will rot in hell.
This is the very essence of what you are saying. I do understand this. Thank you for pointing out just how fair God’s judgement is on us all here on earth.
| quote: | | No you are totally not getting what I'm saying. You know, Satan believed/believes in Christ aswell,he knows Jesus and God are real. But, he isn't a follower, he isn't saved by them. There's a difference. If you are saved by Jesus Christ,then you will be permitted to heaven. Only God knows our hearts, you keep forgetting these details,friend. |
Yes, as I explained above. Anyone who repents for their sins and accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior will be in heaven, despite their murderous, atrocious, evil deeds here on earth. Anyone who does not accept Jesus and repent their their sins, including Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Aborigines, Hindus, Eskimos, Indians (prior to white-man colonies), reality-show junkies, and anyone that has ever been introduced to Jesus and knows nothing of Christianity like in the mountains of Tibet, will therefore be sent to hell. This list of non-Christians is approximately 66% (~ 4 billion or so people), and it also includes those who call themselves “Christians” but do not truly believe in Jesus and repent for their sins, which probably pushes the percentage of earthlings going to hell to approx. 80-85%. Lotsa folks will be cookin’ marshmallows with old Beelzebub.
I guess this begs the question – why did God put so many people on earth, including those people who have and will never hear of Jesus (Tibetan mountain folk), only to send them directly to hell when they die?
Then again, if you want to take the Bible literally, Revelation 7:4 states that only 144,000 JEWS are going to heaven, while everyone else will be in hell, but hey, who’s being specific here?
| quote: | You are totally messed up on this. Shall I repeat once more? GOOD DEEDS WILL NOT GET YOU INTO HEAVEN. If that were the case,then why did Jesus even die on the cross? eh?
I quoted an old quote for you " The pathway to hell is paved with good intentions. "
Good deeds won't get you to heaven. |
Yes, I’m very clear now. Good deeds are most certainly not enough. Belief in Christ and repentance for your sins. Thank you. Everyone else, including my list above, come out and get your campfire/hellfire gear…..
And as I said, this truly says wonders about a loving, peaceful, rational God.
| quote: | No,you aren't clear. Listen carefully, then you might comprehend what I'm telling you.
Those who are not saved by Jesus Christ,and have not repented for their sins, will not go to heaven. Is that clear? Ok,Good lets move on. |
I really hope we understand each other. I’ve made it abundantly clear with precise examples that I understand you. Thanks.
| quote: | We all commit sin, we're all humans and we all make mistakes.Christians,atheists,Muslims,Jewish..etc etc etc. We all our sinners. But, some of us repent for our sin. There is a difference..
Now,you should be clear.
( to add, I hope you know this isn't a joke to me or others here.) |
I think there’s still a misunderstanding here. Let’s back up and examine again what you said:
| quote: | | Once you make it right with God, you don't do those things. You have no desire to. |
Now I fully understand that everyone sins, including Christians. But this statement is in complete contradiction to your statement about not doing “those things” and having no desire to. I then concluded that the only people that should theoretically be sitting in jail are atheists, agnostics, and non-Christians, because they reject or are unaware of Jesus and continually and willfully sin and do evil.
So which is it?
And no, I'm not joking. Maybe I'm being a little facetious, but I'm certainly not joking.
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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...
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Get over it, a lot of people believe in other things.
