I believe it is evident by a plethora of Chavez' actions since coming to power that he fashions himself more like a king with limitless power than an like an elected official. That much is quite obvious.

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Originally posted by George Smiley And then they implement all the policies they were elected to do...

Can you show me where in said manifesto that Hugo Chavez claimed he was going to do all of the things he's doing now. You know--all of the shit us Hugo-haters have been saying for 19 pages now? Did he run on a platform of rampant inflation and wealth destruction? What about the rest?

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Originally posted by Shakka Can you show me where in said manifesto that Hugo Chavez claimed he was going to do all of the things he's doing now

Can you show me ANY government that said in their manifesto all the things they do?!

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Did he run on a platform of rampant inflation and wealth destruction? What about the rest?

I wouldn't have thought so.

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Originally posted by Shakka I believe it is evident by a plethora of Chavez' actions since coming to power that he fashions himself more like a king with limitless power than an like an elected official. That much is quite obvious.

Do you support democracy or dictatorship?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Can you show me ANY government that said in their manifesto all the things they do?!

Then why did you even bring it up? Seems pretty moot.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Do you support democracy or dictatorship?

This isn't about me. But since you asked, I support the individual's right to pursue self-actualization above all else.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Do you support democracy or dictatorship?

I'm being to wonder about this of you actually...

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I'm being to wonder about this of you actually...

Yet here I am championing the rights of man to have a say in the running of their country through free and fair elections, but you, on two threads now, are suggesting that the population of a given country should have no rights to chose their government...

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Originally posted by Shakka Then why did you even bring it up? Seems pretty moot.

Because when you have a free and fair election (something the Americans on this thread do not support) each candidate/party has a manifesto and the electorate vote for which ever one they prefer. No manifesto in the world will ever contain 100% of the policies introduced by the winning candidate/party because it is impossible. But Chavez and his manifesto of far reaching social reforms is what the people voted for, what they wanted, and that is what they've got.

If those policies don't work, well that's a completely different thread because we are talking about whether the actions of Chavez are democratic or undemocratic, and the FACT is, beyond all reasonable doubt, that they ARE democratic. That's not to say you can't criticise Chavez's policies (as people criticise the policies of Bush or the Labour Party) but one criticism you cannot make of him is that he is using power undemocratically (which is what this thread is dicussing)

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Originally posted by Shakka This isn't about me. But since you asked, I support the individual's right to pursue self-actualization above all else.

And that would make you a socialist no?

What made you think the “Captain’s Quarters” blog was a reliable source of information escapes me, but concentrates on nationalisation again

The final source is from Alek Boyd, never heard of him but I’m sure his blog is a great source of reliable and unbiased information!

Shakka, you’re a lazy git aren’t ya! Do you honestly think that typing +Chavez +dictator in Google isn’t gonna bring up a whole load of unreliable, unsubstantiated claims that, funnily enough, claim Chavez is a dictator?!

How about instead of finding silly biased articles that we both know exists in abundance, you respond to the points that I have made? [/QUOTE]

And you come back with those two sources??? Hmmm I suppose I could respond with counter-arguments from the weekly standard:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conte...5ruylo.asp?pg=1

But I can’t stoop that low. Apparently you’ve been learning a few things from republicans … What’s next, memory hole?

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What is the penalty for treason in America? It's the death penalty isn't it? You're babbling and trying to beat around the bush - face facts - in America, all those that helped to organise and participated in a military over thrown of the government would be on death row - FACT

“FACT”?? The only “facts” that I’m facing is you’re increasingly imitating the Bush administration in trying to defend a failed policy/stance at any expense which only digs you further into the grave while fully endorsing cognitive dissonance.

The penalty for treason in the US is legally defined as, “whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

Yes with those facts in mind, obviously the US would put those tv producers to death!!

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1999 - wrong, 2001 - perfectly reasonable

What? The media did a story on corruption in the military and the government threatened to revoke their license and that’s “perfectly reasonable” with you??

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We have done RCTV to fucking death and I have no desire to repeat myself. This article says NOTHING that has not already been covered by me. Assuming that you haven't - read the two articles I posted above. I have nothing more to say on RCTV (and neither have you seeing as you have now read the two articles above)

Apparentely we haven’t. Can you pull the relevant information from the two articles you posted? I mean after all, you did say this to me when I asked you to respond to my argument, “Then post it again and tell me exactly what you want me to comment on because iirc I've replied twice to that post and have no intention of repeating myself if you're not going to tell me what you're on about” and I requited my arguments. Show me similar courtesy.

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Well I criticised something in this post, and earlier I seem to recall criticising the laws that said you could not "insult" or "deflame" the President, but only if that IS what the law says and I am loathed to believe the press until someone who can speak Spanish can find the exact law and give me an exact translation of it (or just post a link and my mum will translate it!!! )

C’mon Georgie, you’re completely incoherent. WTF are you talking about? If you’re referencing something I said than freaking quote it and respond to it. You presented a completely nonsensical criticism. Bringing in Spanish linguistics isn’t going to help.

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There is no justification to the amount of attention given to Venezuela by Americans, American media and the American government compared to other countries around the world (including a lot propped up by said nation) other than the fact that Venezuela poses a direct economic threat to America. Nationalising the oil industry, in my very honest opinion, is the only reason Venezuela is receiving so much criticism and the source of all the media fabrications...

Dude … all my sources were REUTERS and the BBC. I posted criticism that came from the EU. What’s your excuse for all of that???. Stop with the strawmen arguments already … it’s getting pathetic. Attaching “American” to a criticism does NOT an argument make.

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Erm that it has allowed the government to pay for extensive social and education programs for people who had otherwise had no access to such programs in the past? Pretty laudable if you ask me.

Erm so raise taxes to pay for those initiatives rather than nationalize an efficient and performing industry that will ultimately lose more money in the long run.

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