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Originally posted by infinity HiGH So am I the only one that thinks Jose needs to go? It's pretty clear he'll never be the second or third option that we need him to be on offense. He plays way too conservative, and especially since we're supposed to be "running" more he's really slowing this team down.

I think it's pretty evident that he's been playing hurt all season. He hasn't been great at all, but I definately think that's attributed to his injury and not having the time to rehab it properly. He has no hop in his step at all. I would be waiting to see him healthy for a whole season before I make judgments on him.

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH Let Roko grow. It's pretty evident right now that he's more aggressive than Jose will ever be and he can get you a steal here and there. If that sort of trade happened then we'd be in rebuild mode for the next 2 years so we'd have nothing to lose by letting Roko start.

You think Roko would improve with someone older like Nash on the team, meanwhile we wouldnt have to depend on him right away if we didnt get PG=PG trade.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH So am I the only one that thinks Jose needs to go? It's pretty clear he'll never be the second or third option that we need him to be on offense. He plays way too conservative, and especially since we're supposed to be "running" more he's really slowing this team down. Time to tank the season and pick up a guard or PF during draft and trade Jose+Bosh somewhere for a whole new team (eg. the "rumoured" trade of Bosh going to the Nuggets would be sick). Resign Marion. Let Parker walk. And hopefully get that god awful Kapono contract off the books.

I really like Jose, he just needs an aggressive backup like we used to have in TJ Ford. I've maintained since the beginning of the season that it was really too bad Ford was a becoming a whiny bitch and had to be traded, because having Calderon and TJ as our PGs was a huge advantage for the Raptors.

As an aside, Calderon has been injured all season, I don't think he's had the time he's needed to really rehab his lower body this season, and it's been hurting his game bad. Give him the off-season to rehab and for Roko to get to better, and I think we'll have a solid PG pair for next season. Roko's starting to show that potential I thought he had in the beginning of the season, and with any luck and some hard work, he should be a great backup to Calderon (assuming we keep him) next season.

I think the Raps just need a stronger bench. Kapono in particular is a constant source of frustration for me when I watch the Raptors play. Our starting lineup, when healthy, looks great. Bargnani's growing into his game finally, Marion should be resigned because he's lookin good, and Bosh is Bosh.

At the beginning of the season, the Raps kept losing games in the final seconds by 2 or 3 points, pick up a few of those and the whole mental-health of a team can be shot for a while. They needed a veteran like Marion to come in to talk the guys through the mental game, and if they can re-sign him, we may be looking at a completely different season next year.

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Originally posted by MarkT hmmmmm...but with Marion, Bosh and Bargnani on the floor, Jose doesn't need to be (and shouldn't be) the 2nd or 3rd option on offense. He just needs (and already has) a good enough shot to make people pay for not covering him and should focus almost exclusively on distributing the ball. After the 3rd today, he 9 pts on 4-5 shooting with 10 ast. perfect.

Well...Jose was signed with being the second/third option in mind so even with Marion, Bosh and Bargnani he should be an important factor on offense. This year he's not even half of what we saw last year. Maybe it's the opposing teams' defenses limiting him?

I'm of the belief that to be a winning team you need to be semi-dominant from a few different positions and not just the front court; or just the backcourt and it's Jose's reluctance to control the game like a PG should that really irks me. Don't get me wrong: he's an incredible shooter and I'd rather have him take the game winning shot over anyone else on the team, but he seems to be a pretty limited player. I'm not even going to mention his defense because sometimes it feels as if it's 5-on-4. He really lacks the quickness to guard any guards in this league.

Having said that: I hope I end up eating my words and he proves me wrong because he's been 1 of my favourite Raptors for a long time.

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Originally posted by slingshot I think it's pretty evident that he's been playing hurt all season. He hasn't been great at all, but I definately think that's attributed to his injury and not having the time to rehab it properly. He has no hop in his step at all. I would be waiting to see him healthy for a whole season before I make judgments on him.

Yea they've been saying that all season but after a while it becomes tiring. If the guy isn't 100% then sit him until he is. Going back to my previous point: there's nothing to lose by starting Ukic and letting him grow. At least that's how I would've done it. If a rookie manages to put away a team like the Magic in the dying seconds then I think he deserves more playing time.

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Originally posted by Rodrico You think Roko would improve with someone older like Nash on the team, meanwhile we wouldnt have to depend on him right away if we didnt get PG=PG trade.

I'd love to see Nash on the Raptors. As a veteran bench guy. He's almost 36 and there's no way he should be a starting PG by the time he hits free agency.

Fack...just imagine: Jose-Ukic-Nash as our PG trio.

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Originally posted by Spam I really like Jose, he just needs an aggressive backup like we used to have in TJ Ford. I've maintained since the beginning of the season that it was really too bad Ford was a becoming a whiny bitch and had to be traded, because having Calderon and TJ as our PGs was a huge advantage for the Raptors.

Whoa whoa whoa...whiny bitch?? Where have you read this? (and ESPN doesn't count cause they make shit up 90% of the time). As far as I'm concerned TJ handled the whole situation like a real man. He even admitted that he knew his time in T.O was up when he went down and Jose starting killing it.

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Give him the off-season to rehab

Assuming he doesn't go play for Spain, which imo, he shouldn't. And if he does then he should be traded immediately.

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I think the Raps just need a stronger bench. Kapono in particular is a constant source of frustration for me when I watch the Raptors play. Our starting lineup, when healthy, looks great. Bargnani's growing into his game finally, Marion should be resigned because he's lookin good, and Bosh is Bosh.

Yea I dunno wtf is up with our bench. The only guy (other than Roko) that's been contributing has been Graham (LOL ya sounds pretty crazy that JOEY!! is being an excellent contributor). Don't get me started on Kapono. I don't even wanna hear that "he's not being properly utilized" bull. The guy gets more travelling calls than three pointers. Hopefully Marion opens up Kapono's game a little bit (as we've seen on Sunday) but as it stands now his contract is such a waste.

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They needed a veteran like Marion to come in to talk the guys through the mental game, and if they can re-sign him, we may be looking at a completely different season next year.

If only that trade happened in late December like it was supposed to.

Last edited by infinity HiGH on Feb-24-2009 at 04:17

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH Whoa whoa whoa...whiny bitch?? Where have you read this? (and ESPN doesn't count cause they make shit up 90% of the time). As far as I'm concerned TJ handled the whole situation like a real man. He even admitted that he knew his time in T.O was up when he went down and Jose starting killing it.

Dude, you could see it in his body language. When he lost his starting roll, he lost his heart. He believes he's a starting PG, and isn't happy in the back-up role. He was quite vocal last season in his disappointment in losing his starting position, and his comments that his time in T.O. was up was proof positive of that fact. Sure he was classy as he could be about it in public, but I have no doubt that behind the scenes, he was asking to be traded so he could get a starting position back. If he was able to swallow his pride and be the backup to Calderon splitting minutes 60/40 or 55/45 like they had been, then the Raptors, in my belief, would have been dominant this season.

Instead, we traded Rasho and TJ for JO and a dry-erase marker. JO is a washed up injury that plays a few games here and there, TJ Ford is a fast, reliable PG that brought a whole different game to the floor than Calderon, and that gave the Raps a bigger advantage than JO or Marion could ever dream to bring to the table. I understand a GM's gotta make changes for PR and all that, but I strongly believe that he should have focused on strengthening the bench, not trading a HUGE asset for a gamble on the starting lineup.

___________________
Captain Planet is gey.
Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, Heart???
These forces are supposed to combine to create Captain Planet?
Bullshit.
Those forces combine to create a soaking, boiling mudstorm on Valentine's Day.

we had the best scoring bench in the league last season, with one of the worse starting 5. Strengthening the bench was not in our best interest.

That's why we pulled the trigger of depth for starters. Your starters should be playing the majority of the minutes, you bench buys you time while the starters are sitting.

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good moves this year, when you look at the net result...

out: TJ, Rasho, Moon & Solomon
in: Marion, Banks, O'Bryant

considering it allows Bargnani to play at C, any GM who doesn't make that move is an idiot.

Why dump Calderon for another PG? It's pointless because you're not going to be 'upgrading' at the position in any meaningful way unless you bring back either CP3 or Deron in return.

Jose is (IMHO) top 5 in the league *right now*. Who else is elite? Nash, Rondo...? Neither is an 'upgrade', so why mess with team chemisty AGAIN?

You can make the argument (ha, not really) that Ukic could start next year. In that case, you'd trade Jose to fill another hole, perhaps to bring in a legit guard (assuming Parker walks). Banks could be the backup or you sign another PG (serviceable backups are a dime a dozen).

trading Jose to land Nash is not doing anything for the Raps, IMHO (as cool as it would be to see Nash in a Raps uniform).

Bosh-Jose for Amare-Barbosa...that's far more intriguing. I don't think Phoenix bites though, unless they deal Nash in a separate deal and I prefer Jose-Bosh to that duo anyway.

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Originally posted by Sly_Guy we had the best scoring bench in the league last season, with one of the worse starting 5. Strengthening the bench was not in our best interest. That's why we pulled the trigger of depth for starters. Your starters should be playing the majority of the minutes, you bench buys you time while the starters are sitting.

That's fair, but you can't underestimate the influence of having a guy like TJ (or Calderon, depending on the game) running the PG position for that bench. When they traded TJ and Nesterovic, it was like taking the bench out at the knees.

But you're right they needed to upgrade the starting lineup somehow. Hindsight tells us that all they had to do was count on Bargnani to finally find his groove, which made the TJ trade more of a detriment than a benefit.

___________________
Captain Planet is gey.
Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, Heart???
These forces are supposed to combine to create Captain Planet?
Bullshit.
Those forces combine to create a soaking, boiling mudstorm on Valentine's Day.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam Dude, you could see it in his body language. When he lost his starting roll, he lost his heart. He believes he's a starting PG, and isn't happy in the back-up role. He was quite vocal last season in his disappointment in losing his starting position, and his comments that his time in T.O. was up was proof positive of that fact. Sure he was classy as he could be about it in public, but I have no doubt that behind the scenes, he was asking to be traded so he could get a starting position back. If he was able to swallow his pride and be the backup to Calderon splitting minutes 60/40 or 55/45 like they had been, then the Raptors, in my belief, would have been dominant this season. Instead, we traded Rasho and TJ for JO and a dry-erase marker. JO is a washed up injury that plays a few games here and there, TJ Ford is a fast, reliable PG that brought a whole different game to the floor than Calderon, and that gave the Raps a bigger advantage than JO or Marion could ever dream to bring to the table. I understand a GM's gotta make changes for PR and all that, but I strongly believe that he should have focused on strengthening the bench, not trading a HUGE asset for a gamble on the starting lineup.

You're nuts. The Raptors would probably be in the same position they are in now; or slightly better off had they not traded TJ. Don't you remember the reason they traded for JO? It's because they had a gaping whole down low. There was no inside presence whatsoever and Bosh needed help. They also needed someone to help rebound the ball because as usual, they were one of the worst rebounding teams. TJ helped in none of those aspects but only contributed to a position where they were stacked. He would've been traded either way because it was clear that he was the biggest expendable asset on this team. This has nothing to do with what TJ wanted and everything about improving the team. On top of that, it was also the most obvious move at the time. Young, talented PG's don't go sit on the bench, especially when you have 2 that are fit to start on 80-90% of the league. It doesn't make sense from the PG's standpoint; and the teams standpoint. Find me another team in this league that has 2 PG's worthy of being starters splitting minutes.

As for TJ being a fast, reliable PG: Ya right. Fast? Yes definitely (when he's not injured). Reliable? Um, when he felt like it. He lost more games for us than won them though, so he's hardly reliable. I can't even figure out how you think he could contribute more than Marion, a perennial All-Star who has plenty of experience WINNING GAMES, rebounding, blocking, and stealing the ball. Not to mention a better basketball IQ. If this trade happened when it was originally supposed to (in December) then the Raptors would probably be very close to a playoffs seed.

edit: Hindsight tells us it was all a waste, but hindsight is always 20/20. On top of that, if we never got JO then we wouldn't have Marion now. And if we didn't get JO then how do we know Bargnani would develop the same way he did now? In essence we traded Rasho and TJ for Marion. JO was a gamble that didn't pan out and instead was traded for something that we desperately needed. Our PG situation now with Banks and Roko coming off the bench is good enough. Now we just sign Nash as a veteran PG once he's on the market and we're set.

Last edited by infinity HiGH on Feb-27-2009 at 21:24

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH You're nuts. The Raptors would probably be in the same position they are in now; or slightly better off had they not traded TJ. Don't you remember the reason they traded for JO? It's because they had a gaping whole down low. There was no inside presence whatsoever and Bosh needed help. They also needed someone to help rebound the ball because as usual, they were one of the worst rebounding teams. TJ helped in none of those aspects but only contributed to a position where they were stacked. He would've been traded either way because it was clear that he was the biggest expendable asset on this team. This has nothing to do with what TJ wanted and everything about improving the team. On top of that, it was also the most obvious move at the time. Young, talented PG's don't go sit on the bench, especially when you have 2 that are fit to start on 80-90% of the league. It doesn't make sense from the PG's standpoint; and the teams standpoint. Find me another team in this league that has 2 PG's worthy of being starters splitting minutes. As for TJ being a fast, reliable PG: Ya right. Fast? Yes definitely (when he's not injured). Reliable? Um, when he felt like it. He lost more games for us than won them though, so he's hardly reliable. I can't even figure out how you think he could contribute more than Marion, a perennial All-Star who has plenty of experience WINNING GAMES, rebounding, blocking, and stealing the ball. Not to mention a better basketball IQ. If this trade happened when it was originally supposed to (in December) then the Raptors would probably be very close to a playoffs seed. edit: Hindsight tells us it was all a waste, but hindsight is always 20/20. On top of that, if we never got JO then we wouldn't have Marion now. And if we didn't get JO then how do we know Bargnani would develop the same way he did now? In essence we traded Rasho and TJ for Marion. JO was a gamble that didn't pan out and instead was traded for something that we desperately needed. Our PG situation now with Banks and Roko coming off the bench is good enough. Now we just sign Nash as a veteran PG once he's on the market and we're set.

You're absolutely right that, in the end, getting Marion was much better than keeping TJ. On that we can agree. I'm just saying the initial trade was a fuck-up, regardless of whether they needed to make a big move up front, JO was a waste of time, and I'd have preferred to keep TJ instead.

It's a good thing we got Marion though, now all we need is to re-sign him and it will all have turned out to be an alright season, if improving the team was the end-goal over short-term success and another one-round playoff appearance.

___________________
Captain Planet is gey.
Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, Heart???
These forces are supposed to combine to create Captain Planet?
Bullshit.
Those forces combine to create a soaking, boiling mudstorm on Valentine's Day.

I was ok with the JO trade mainly because it was always intended as a transition move from the start. anything JO gave the Raps during his tenure was a bonus. He was either going to be dealt now or next year when his expiring contract would be attractive.

Rather than waiting until next year, or waiting until the end of next year, he was dealt now. so what? Marion will help now (particularly with Bargnani playing C) but he could also could be resigned for 3-4 years. Marion is NOT in decline...he was just not a good fit in Miami at all.

Jermaine was a no-lose trade from the start. If he returned to all-star form, great...but that was never the primary motivation in the first place. the Raps ditched a disgruntled, redundant TJ, with the expectation that Ukic was ready, with JO being the ticket to cap room in 1-2 years. Ukic has demonstrated that he's at least a capable backup to Jose.

this has worked out SO well, it's not even funny. After next year, the Raps could have Jose, Bosh, Marion and Bargnani under contract with $$$ to sign a decent guard. With Marion able to defend the other team's best 1 through 4, they don't even need a lock-down defender at SG. Really, the Raps just need a good shooter who will stretch the defense along with Bargnani, allowing Bosh and Marion to go buck wild in the paint.

come on...doesn't this lineup make Raps fans excited??? Jose, Marion, Bosh and Bargnani with a decent SG???

Fuck...bring back Delfino and that is a *sick* starting lineup that can compete with any team in the league.