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Originally posted by George Smiley How is economic freedom better than economic equality?!

It's equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome, and is perhaps one of the biggest points of differentiation between the two systems.

Socialism = economic equality = equality of opportunities

There is NO equality of opportunity under capitalism

Do you not understand that in a capitalist society, the more wealth you have the more opportunities you have. As capitalism requires an unequal distribution of wealth, that equates into an unequal distribution of equality.

Economic freedom does not, and never will, lead to equal opportunities (economic equality).

Economic freedom means individuals are allowed to consolidate wealth at the expense of other individuals in society. This gives the wealthier individuals more opportunities in life than those with less wealth.

Socialist polices aim to offset that phenomena by redistributing wealth more evenly (yes, through taxation) so that those less wealthy individuals can still have the same amount of opportunities as those at the weathiest echlons of society. For example, education standards at state schools will be as high as at private schools.

Under capitalism, if a rich person and a poor person need a kidney transplant, the rich person will get one because they can afford it. Under free health care they both get a kidney transplant because they both have equal opportnities...

Under a capitalist society, wealth is created by the people. In a socialist system wealth is owned and distributed by the government that played no part in the creation of said wealth.

Why is it that if so much wealth redistribution creates so much more economic "opportunity," that all of those newly created opportunities are so frequently squandered? Admit that it is the outcome that you are truly concerned with, not the opportunity.

shakka, don't debate this dumbass..

smiley's argument is pure emotion, and he is repeating the same economic fallacies he did three months ago...apparently he never learns. Don't waste your time.

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Originally posted by Shakka Under a capitalist society, wealth is created by the people.

Wealth is always created by the people no matter what kind of economic system it is being created in! The issue is over who gets to keep that wealth...

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In a socialist system wealth is owned and distributed by the government that played no part in the creation of said wealth.

In a purely socialist society that may be the case, but I've never argued for a purely socialist society have I?

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Why is it that if so much wealth redistribution creates so much more economic "opportunity," that all of those newly created opportunities are so frequently squandered? Admit that it is the outcome that you are truly concerned with, not the opportunity.

What do you mean by "outcome"? If people don't take advantage of the opportunities given to them then that's their fault!

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Originally posted by Capitalizt shakka, don't debate this dumbass.. smiley's argument is pure emotion, and he is repeating the same economic fallacies he did three months ago...apparently he never learns. Don't waste your time.

No you're the one who doesn't understand what I believe in!

You think I'm a communist or something, but I've said time and time again that my ideal society is "social democracy" which would use the Keynesian economic model. It's a mix between capitalist and socialist policies. I don't think communism will work presumably for the same reasons you don't think it'll work. The society we live in now is "liberal democracy" but I don't think liberal democracy contains enough social safeguards which leads to poverty, high crime and lower living standards. I also think that vital services like education etc should be in the hands of an elected government, and not in the hands of organisations who have as their main concern making money, not the wider effects on society...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Socialism = economic equality = equality of opportunities There is NO equality of opportunity under capitalism Do you not understand that in a capitalist society, the more wealth you have the more opportunities you have. As capitalism requires an unequal distribution of wealth, that equates into an unequal distribution of equality. Economic freedom does not, and never will, lead to equal opportunities (economic equality). Economic freedom means individuals are allowed to consolidate wealth at the expense of other individuals in society. This gives the wealthier individuals more opportunities in life than those with less wealth. Socialist polices aim to offset that phenomena by redistributing wealth more evenly (yes, through taxation) so that those less wealthy individuals can still have the same amount of opportunities as those at the weathiest echlons of society. For example, education standards at state schools will be as high as at private schools. Under capitalism, if a rich person and a poor person need a kidney transplant, the rich person will get one because they can afford it. Under free health care they both get a kidney transplant because they both have equal opportnities...

so basically, you want to make a welfare state?? Does Katrina mean anything to you??

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Originally posted by LazFX so basically, you want to make a welfare state?? Does Katrina mean anything to you??

I'm sure it will once you've explained the relevance...

If everyone is on welfare, who foots the bill? Do we all get to live in shanties? I pay taxes proudly and without much complaint, however, my government takes more than enough from me as is. Suddenly all I can think about is Brave New World.

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Originally posted by Shakka If everyone is on welfare, who foots the bill? Do we all get to live in shanties? I pay taxes proudly and without much complaint, however, my government takes more than enough from me as is. Suddenly all I can think about is Brave New World.

YAWN! If you can't even understand the simple concept of the welfare state there's not much hope for this sub-debate is there?

Welfare state does not = unemployment benefits FFS!

The dole makes up a very small proportion of the welfare state (or social security) but if you're not capable of understanding that very very simple concept then you will never have the right to criticise or cast any judgement on the welfare state when it is clear you have no idea what one is...

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/gla/...2153144,00.html

Looks like it's not just Venezuela's poor that are benefitting from Chavez...now poor Londoners are reaping the benefits too!

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Originally posted by Capitalizt smiley stop bumping this thread, and stop defending this scumbag.

Until he abandons the democratic process then I'm afraid there's not much to see here (and the constitutional changes have to go to a national referendum...)

You and your friends, on the other hand, appear to have no respect for democracy and support the undemocratic opposition who are at odds with the majority of the population...