If i or we muslims see that our Prophet is more important than any other prophet , and/or we see that other prophets are insignificant , then how come , after the cartoon incident , not one muslim critised Jesus or Moses ???

I never said or even gave the smallest hint regarding what you are saying , and if you know ANYTHING , about the Quran , you would know that Jesus and Moses were mentioned several times , if not more than Prophet Mohammad . And our religion clearly identifies with Chrstianity and the Jewsih religion.

In the Middle East today , religious figures dont not rule the country, but they have some influence on the laws and law makers, and if all the countries do FORCE people to do what the religious figures think is right , then how come the whole Middle east and parts of the Gulf serve alcohol in public places , have beaches where both men and women can swim together , let women vote in the elections , allow women to run for government positions and so on ... The choice is yours !

@ trancaholic : maybe i misunderstood your quote , i thought you were addressing the immingrants in western countries as one entity without distinguishing between each group's direction of thought ! Hence my assumption of generalization.

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Actively Muslim >>> Jerusalem , Palestine !

quote:

Originally posted by qussay I never said or even gave the smallest hint regarding what you are saying , and if you know ANYTHING , about the Quran , you would know that Jesus and Moses were mentioned several times , if not more than Prophet Mohammad . And our religion clearly identifies with Chrstianity and the Jewsih religion.

I'm fully aware of that they're prophets as well, and how much you "identify" with Christian and Jewish religions. I wouldn't really say "identify," though, as it's more like "incorporates."

The difference is that Mohammad is your last prophet, therefore the one most highly discussed. I see that no one has a problem with Jesus depictions, yet you have issues with Mohammad depictions.

quote:

In the Middle East today , religious figures dont not rule the country, but they have some influence on the laws and law makers, and if all the countries do FORCE people to do what the religious figures think is right , then how come the whole Middle east and parts of the Gulf serve alcohol in public places , have beaches where both men and women can swim together , let women vote in the elections , allow women to run for government positions and so on ... The choice is yours !

This is not true everywhere in the Middle East and you know it. Are you going to tell me that Iran and Saudi Arabia doesn't use religion (Sharia law) to govern?? There are differing degrees of its application throughout the Muslim world, as I'm fully aware, and I support those nations that have become more secular in their ways of governing, but as a whole, Muslim nations are far from having secular governments. That said, I do realize that the US still has a some ground to cover to get there, too.

I think that you misinterpret that I, and others on here, classify all Muslims as in the same group as those that we complain about, which is far from the truth. The problem is that in our country, we vocally fight back against our religious fundamentalists when they try to use their religion to govern. There are court cases that constantly deal with this issue to ensure the separation of church and state. You never hear of the barbaric punishments found in our mutual relgious texts incorporated here. Christians and Jews, if they've read their texts, are no strangers to stoning, but that doesn't mean we still do it.

I think the main point, and one that's I've heard echoed on here, is that the normal, everyday Muslim doesn't do enough to condemn and separate themselves from their fundamentalists. Instead, you criticize the West for criticizing them and "attacking your way of life." It has been refreshing to see that this has been happening more lately, since the terrorists have become more extreme. I was particularly impressed with the fatwa issued the other day regarding following the rules of the nations in which Muslims reside (http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=352135). It's good to see that sort of progress in the attack of behavior that's making the entire group look bad. It's especially important to condemn this activity because the extremists are doing these things in the name of religion, and if you don't want your religion to be associated with terror, bombings, etc., it's important to show that this ISN'T what it's about. I thought the Muslim reaction to the cartoons was the worst possible way to show that Muslims weren't like the bomb-turban wearing prophet in the cartoon that caused the controversy.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

well , Sharia will always be part of arab/muslim societies and governments. The problem is, many muslims today , apply sharia in the wrong way , forgetting that times have changed from the days of prophet Mohammad ( PBUH ) , and i am not , in any way saying that sharia is wrong , i am saying , that people use it as an excuse to get away with many WRONG actions , which are in complete opposition with the real islam.

Putting Iran and Saudi Arabia aside , the issues i mentioned in my previous post can be found in countries such as Jordan , Lebanon , Syria , Egypt , Bharian , UAE ...

I agree with you , that muslims who use ANY violent method of expression as a reaction to a certain issue , is very wrong , and is currently giving the wrong impression about the whole religion. I also , strongly agree with fatwa's stating that muslims should abide by their host country's laws , and conduct themselves in the best manner possible. Those countries gave them citizenships and welcomed them , they owe this to the country , to themselves , and especially to their religion. But , at the same time , the country should aslo do its part , by trying to prevent racist activites , and educate people on how to get along as one body within that country. ( issues such as job descrimination )

Many countries are doing alot to condemn such issues , such as the Zarqawi incident in Jordan, and Qanadah case also ( refer to my previous post for sources ) but the problem is , the media tends to avoid any positive feedback from muslims , and wants to show the world , the worst side of the muslim/arab community , so you would never know what IS ACTUALLY going on ! So many positive reactions came about from the cartoon issue , such as peaceful marches , seminars to show and explain what the real islam is , even articles in numerous newspapers and magazines explaining to the people of the world who our prophet is , but again , a slight portion ( if not none ) of this got media coverage !

Finally , the Quran , talks more about Jesus and Moses and all the other prophets , than it does about Mohammad ( PBUH ) , in fact , Islam shows , how all the prophets from Adam to Mohammad ( PBUH ) came with one single , unified message from god , it is US , the people of the world , who separated that message , and turned what is supposed to be one religion for all( sent several times , to different people , throughout different durations) , into segregated religions .

This is truly a rough time for all, especially for muslims , but rest assure , that alot is being done , even if you hear otherwise...

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Actively Muslim >>> Jerusalem , Palestine !

Last edited by qussay on Jun-15-2006 at 23:00

Haha, this is my first time in the Politics Forum for some time now, and since I'm in Denmark for the summer, the title of this thread caught me offguard. I was like "jihad, what? oh no! I must run!" But then I realized it's just an on-going discussion. You guys had me going there for a sec though.

But on a serious note, I met with a member of the Danish Foreign Ministry two weeks ago for a class I'm taking, and it was very interesting to hear the government's view. While at first I thought it was somewhat irresponsible for the government to have done nothing, it makes sense to me now that they can on the one hand disapprove of the cartoons but on the other allow them to be published at the discretion of the newspaper editors responsible. I think in all of this it's been forgotten that a government can't be monitor everything that is published -- the responsibility for the publishing at some point has to fall on the paper and the paper alone. I think it's the job of a newspaper editor to decide for him/herself whether or not something is offensive. Kind of a moral obligation, if you will.

Having said that, the PM was just plain silly to refuse the meeting request of the Muslim Ambassadors last Fall. Had the government been more conciliatory to the offended parties, perhaps this would never have spiraled into such a huge controversy.

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Another fall, another Cartoon offense:

quote:

COPENHAGEN — Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen denounced on Sunday, October 8, footage of members of a far-right Danish party lampooning Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) after the film sparked outrage in the Muslim world. "I strongly condemn the behavior of members of the youth wing of the Danish Peoples' Party during their summer camp," Rasmussen said in a written statement to the Danish news agency Ritzau, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP). "It is unacceptable behavior of a small group of young people. Their tasteless behavior in no way represents the Danish people's or young Danes' view of Muslims or Islam," Rasmussen said. Denmark's TV2 channel has broadcast excerpts from a video showing members of the extreme-right Danish People's Party portraying the prophet Mohammed as a beer-drinking camel and a drunken terrorist attacking Copenhagen. Swift The prime minister said he was pleased that youth wings of parties from across the political spectrum in Denmark had condemned the film. The youth wings of other parties, including the ruling Liberal party, criticized the DPP and said they would protest by not attending any political events where members of the Danish Peoples' Party were present. The president of the DPP Youth, Kenneth Kristensen, who did not participate in the party, on Friday, October 6, distanced his organization from the footage. Pundits say the prime minister has learnt the lesson from last year's cartoons crisis and swiftly condemned the offensive video. A government-backed study condemned Rasmussen for mishandling the cartoons crisis sparked last year by the publication of 12 caricatures mocking the Prophet in Danish mass-circulation Jyllands Posten. Rasmussen refused in October 2005 to meet with 11 ambassadors from Muslim nations who had asked to see him in a bid to nip a looming crisis in the bud. Rasmussen said he regretted the hurt caused to Muslims but refuses to apologize for the publications of the drawings. No Responsibility Abu Laban (L) with Nyhed Avisen editor-in-chief David Trads. Footage of the video were published Saturday, October 7, by daily Nyhed Avisen. A delegation of Muslim leaders in Denmark met Sunday with the newspaper's editor-in-chief David Trads, who argued that the paper just exposed to the public opinion what had been going on behind the closed doors of the DPP's youth wing. "It is very important to highlight the political culture of this party, which is a strong ally to the government and the third largest party in Denmark," he told IslamOnline.net. He said the newspaper covered the incident and was in no way involved in it. "We have just covered a political incident," he said. "It is important to expose the racism of this party, which grows extremist when it comes to Islam." Ahmed Abu-Laban, a Copenhagen imam who attended the meeting with Trads, said the issue is completely different from that of the Jyallands Posten. "The Danish media is not responsible this time for the crisis," he told IOL. "It is the Posten that organized a contest of cartoons lampooning the Prophet." "The paper has just heralded the news and did not spark the crisis," he added. Abu Laban, who helped organize a trip to Egypt and Lebanon last year to rally support among Muslim leaders for protests against the cartoons, urged the Muslim nation to address the current crisis in a profound approach. Muslim leaders in Denmark said on Saturday they will not be provoked by such a "childish manner," but will take an astute action against the insult by the anti-immigrant. Muslims make up around three percent of Denmark’s 5.3 population, making Islam the second largest religion after the Lutheran Protestant Church.

(Source)

I think it's interesting to observe who did and did not learn from the happenings in winter: Our PM has been quick to release the strongest possible condemnation he can possibly afford without giving up on his principles. Abu Laban has been trying to downplay the event, and similarly with Egyptian state-owned media. Moreover, that Danish Imams is urging violence and protest in Middle Eastern media was first reported to the Danish media by the Democratic Muslims-movement. Finally, the OIC has been quick to accept the statement by our PM as a sufficient apology, rather than call for new laws in Europe.
Sadly, not all have learned: First of all, the video was shot by an undercover infiltrator from the left-wing, who followed the group from the DPP for eighteen months before getting a video showing off their racism, and then spent two months trying to sell his video to mass media. Quite symptomatic of the left in Denmark, they don't give a shit how much effort they need to put into it (rather than getting a real job) or how many people are put at risk, as long as the hated right suffers a PR crisis. Second, some Danish Imams have been urging violence and protest in Middle Eastern media. Thirdly, in an effort to boost sales most likely, privately owned media in Egypt has been active in fanning the flames once again. Finally, appeasers in Denmark have once again focused on harshly condemning the drawings (to a degree where any further kind of contact is ruled out a priori), in effect validating claims that something horrible (worse than murder) has taken place, as opposed to the real issue: (no doubt bad) cartoons drawn by drunken teenagers.

Now, the big interesting question is: Has the man on the street learned anything?

EDIT: Looks like the MB is in the "didn't learn" camp as well. But maybe a boycott will be effective this time around. Oh, and looks like I was wrong about the "teenagers" part.:

quote:

CAIRO, Egypt - Egypt's largest Islamic group, the Muslim Brotherhood, denounced on Saturday what it called "new Danish insults" to Islam a day after word spread about a Web video showing young members of a populist Danish political party mocking the Prophet Muhammad. The Brotherhood, which enjoys wide popularity in Egypt and the Arab World, urged Muslims to boycott products from Denmark and any other country that would allow such an "insult." The story, first reported by the Danish daily newspaper Nyhedsavisen on Friday, came in the aftermath of violent protests after 12 drawings of the Prophet Muhammad were published last year by another Danish newspaper. Video clips of a drawing contest among the young politicians, in their 20s and 30s, were posted on some Web sites after the annual Aug. 4-6 camp. In the videos, it appeared that they had been drinking. Nearly all of the approximately 30 people shown in the videos had their faces blurred, but the images they drew were clearly visible. In one, a woman presents a drawing of a camel, adding that it has "the head of Muhammad" and beer bottles as humps. The group laughs as the woman, who was not identified, explained the drawing. "Muslims are shocked by this new Danish insult," the Muslim Brotherhood said in a statement. It described the drawing as "the ugliest for God's most honorable human being, peace be upon him." In September 2005, the Danish daily Jyllands-Posten printed drawings of the Prophet Muhammad. Four months later, they were reprinted in a range of Western media, triggering fierce protests across the Muslim world that included the storming of some western embassies. Kenneth Kristensen, chairman of the Danish People's Party Youth which is known for its anti-immigration stance, refused to apologize Friday for the actions of its members, but acknowledged they were problematic. "I regret that they decided to organize the drawing contest. They must take responsibility for it," said Kristensen, who did not attend the camp. But he added that he believed it was "OK to poke fun at Muhammad, Jesus or Bill Clinton." Islamic law is interpreted to forbid any depiction of the prophet for fear it could lead to idolatry.

Last edited by trancaholic on Oct-09-2006 at 11:06